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#1 Nertea

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:57 PM

I'm starting this topic as a container for balance discussions and the like.

Post your opinions on balance changes that you'd like to see and such. Generally a rationale is good too.

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#2 Guest_Oni_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:57 PM

Hi, let me just start by saying thanks for the mod and all the effort, it's so much better than the original. One thing i'd like to see is more heroes for Isengard. Maybe have Wulf purchasable from the Dunland outpost as more of an incentive to buy one, or possibly Grima/Sharku added to main faction. Sharku would make a good change as a mounted hero. I realise you've probably thought of this but i definitely think it will help balance as there are less Isengard heroes.

#3 Lauri

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:30 PM

Is it hard to win with Isengard? They have exiting heroes. But you just want more to play with?

Or do you always loose with them because they don't have enough heroes, and your soldiers are weak?

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#4 Guest_Oni_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:01 PM

There's nothing wrong with the strength of Isengard, I just meant balanced as in numbers-wise.

#5 Lauri

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:25 PM

So if there's nothing wrong with the strength of Isengard, don't you think that giving them more heroes would perhaps overpower them? You'll have to pay a bit more for more heroes, yes, but they bypass the Commandpoint limit, so technically you get more powerful than the enemy. In addition, heroes like Sharku would likely give a leadership bonus to warg riders, Wulf to Dunlendings and so on.

I can understand that you want more heroes, I love playing with heroes myself. But Isengard is designed to work as they are now, with focus on their army. Besides, Saruman get's pretty neat.
Hope I was able to sway you to see our viewpoint in the case, if not, well... then hope Nertea has a change of heart :p

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#6 Nertea

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:25 PM

In general, what I mean by balance is referring to current ingame content.

I don't consider adding new stuff to be balancing the game. I've also pointed out a few times that Isengard in raw numbers has more units than say, Gondor (assuming you count SF summons as one unit (which I do)

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#7 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:44 AM

I was getting smashed by Trolls both times I fought Mordor.
Single trolls were smashing me, you could imagine how I felt when I had 4 charge my base.

The Sigin-udrîg should get an anti-monster damage boost since Trolls are usually classed as a Cavalry unit in that they have similar roles in battle as the Shock Troops.
Perhaps trolls could lose some of their splash arc so that you don't lose a double battalion in 1 hit.

The 5 plot camps are a big disadvantage to the Dwarves especially considering the price of their units.
In average game your primary camp would have maybe 3-4 resource structures 1 barracks and something else usually a well for me.

This should probably go in the balance discussions but since the topic of Trolls has already been brought up I'll continue it here.

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#8 Guest_Oni_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:21 PM

ok I see it's not for the balance topic but is it something you've thought of adding to a future release? Lauri I get what you're saying but I welcome every novelty now, I've played bfme inside out.
I have another thought that is about balance. I think maybe the Gondor and Mordor top powers either need to be more affective or require less power points to receive them. 18 points and 1000 resource is so much for 3 extra nazgul and some alternative but not much stronger units, also for only one base. I think the eagles and knights of Dol Amroth are stronger than tAotD so maybe it should be cheaper or deal some minor damage.
It's hard to find anything wrong with the mod though serious. I hate to sound like a crit when you guys have put in the time, it was the only thing I noticed.

#9 Nertea

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:05 PM

The Sigin-udrîg should get an anti-monster damage boost since Trolls are usually classed as a Cavalry unit in that they have similar roles in battle as the Shock Troops.
Perhaps trolls could lose some of their splash arc so that you don't lose a double battalion in 1 hit.

The troll damage ratios are not in favor of pikeman counters. Perhaps you're thinking of BFME2, in which a troll dies instantly if it touches a spearman in porcupine mode.There is no pikeman unit in the game that can survive more than one hit from a troll (200 damage) without armour upgrades, and Dwarf armour actually gives more of a defensive bonus than most others (60% reduction instead of 50%). I don't see why this should be any different.

For reference, Pikemen: 100 HP, Militia:110 HP, Citadel Guard: 160 HP, Dwarf Spearman 125 HP, Soldier of Rhun, 190 HP. Each of them is taking ~100 damage except the Dwarf that takes 80, which will kill any of them in 2 hits!

We'll be looking at this in internal tests though. Perhaps the Rakhas-udrig and Azaghar-gundu (intended counters) need some numbers help.

The 5 plot camps are a big disadvantage to the Dwarves especially considering the price of their units.
In average game your primary camp would have maybe 3-4 resource structures 1 barracks and something else usually a well for me.

The camp is walled and has a gate, unlike any other. That's a big advantage that has to come with some disadvantage (not to mention the wall plots that can give you free scouts).

ok I see it's not for the balance topic but is it something you've thought of adding to a future release?

It's not very likely. I have other plans for future work.

I have another thought that is about balance. I think maybe the Gondor and Mordor top powers either need to be more affective or require less power points to receive them. 18 points and 1000 resource is so much for 3 extra nazgul and some alternative but not much stronger units, also for only one base. I think the eagles and knights of Dol Amroth are stronger than tAotD so maybe it should be cheaper or deal some minor damage.

The AotD might need some cost decrease, but the Dark Tower seems ok. The Nazgul you get does respawn for free, and you get a map-wide leadership with the Tower.

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#10 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:31 AM

With the spell cost you could do what I did make the costs universal across the factions.
Easier to plan and balance with a 1,3,6,12 or something along that line.

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#11 Lauri

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:07 PM

Nah, you limit yourself to much going about that way.

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#12 Guest_Dangin_*

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:50 PM

The Sigin-udrîg should get an anti-monster damage boost since Trolls are usually classed as a Cavalry unit in that they have similar roles in battle as the Shock Troops.
Perhaps trolls could lose some of their splash arc so that you don't lose a double battalion in 1 hit.

The troll damage ratios are not in favor of pikeman counters. Perhaps you're thinking of BFME2, in which a troll dies instantly if it touches a spearman in porcupine mode.There is no pikeman unit in the game that can survive more than one hit from a troll (200 damage) without armour upgrades, and Dwarf armour actually gives more of a defensive bonus than most others (60% reduction instead of 50%). I don't see why this should be any different.

For reference, Pikemen: 100 HP, Militia:110 HP, Citadel Guard: 160 HP, Dwarf Spearman 125 HP, Soldier of Rhun, 190 HP. Each of them is taking ~100 damage except the Dwarf that takes 80, which will kill any of them in 2 hits!

We'll be looking at this in internal tests though. Perhaps the Rakhas-udrig and Azaghar-gundu (intended counters) need some numbers help.

The 5 plot camps are a big disadvantage to the Dwarves especially considering the price of their units.
In average game your primary camp would have maybe 3-4 resource structures 1 barracks and something else usually a well for me.

The camp is walled and has a gate, unlike any other. That's a big advantage that has to come with some disadvantage (not to mention the wall plots that can give you free scouts).

ok I see it's not for the balance topic but is it something you've thought of adding to a future release?

It's not very likely. I have other plans for future work.

I have another thought that is about balance. I think maybe the Gondor and Mordor top powers either need to be more affective or require less power points to receive them. 18 points and 1000 resource is so much for 3 extra nazgul and some alternative but not much stronger units, also for only one base. I think the eagles and knights of Dol Amroth are stronger than tAotD so maybe it should be cheaper or deal some minor damage.

The AotD might need some cost decrease, but the Dark Tower seems ok. The Nazgul you get does respawn for free, and you get a map-wide leadership with the Tower.


Yeah, just like Eagle and Dol Amroth powers are great, just like Three Hunters in Rohan - and especially - Saruman of many Colours in Isengard, now AOTD is plain weak. Give them little damage, or maybe just eliminate it totally, and for example do another summon spell, for example: Aid of Fiefdoms - which would bring big army of fully upgraded soldiers from Pelargir/Ringlo/Lossarnach/Amroth etc (for a long duration) OR power like "For Frodo" which would give big boost for units and heroes targeted (something like "Glorious charge" but on steroids, and working on heroes and infantry also.

#13 njm1983

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 05:43 PM

I think the reason people have issue with aotd is because it only allows gondor to take out enemy troops easier not actually crack a base.

I think aotd is fine, you just need to rely on your heroes buffing abilities to crash a base. That's what I do.

#14 Negtharayas16

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:36 PM

Considering all of the above...

I mentioned most of my thoughts in this post in the "confirmed version thread": [edit: sorry, I see nertea dealt with most of these questions in that thread... read down below the quote for my opinions on these other issues being discussion]
"I think Heavy armor needs to help dwarves against trolls more. It seems that there are no dwarven units that effectively counter trolls. I expected Sigin-udrîg to be effective, but even fully upgraded and double-battallioned they were easily creamed - it seems that with the knockback the Sigin-udrîg just never had time to really damage the trolls. When I tried using fully upgraded Rakhâs-abzâg, also double battalioned, I was shocked to see that it only took one punch, despite formation and armor, to kill the entire battalion. it took at least two fully upgraded double battallions in block formation to bring down one troll even when they begain firing as soon as possible.
It seems that the only dwarven units that could slow down 0 level trolls was both battallions Khazâd-uzbadul. But even then, despite a full range of upgrades, they were hardpressed, requiring constant attention and frequent healing.
To make matters worse, dwarven units seem to give huge amounts of experience to their killers, perhaps because they tend [since they are stronger to last longer] and thus have high ranks. In other words, one punch from a normal troll kills a battalion costing well over 1000, and ranks that troll up, so that it now has armor and can heal itself... uh... uh...
The dwarves need something that can take on trolls. Perhaps just give Sigin-udrîg unknockability when they are in tight formation and have been upgraded with heavy armor. That way at least they could do some damage to a troll before getting killed. MOst of the ones I sent never had time to attack before getting killed.
Also, veteran dwarven battalions seem to take forever [aka almost never] to replenish lost men... is this an error or was it intentional?"

To comment on the above issues: I do think that AotD is way underpowered. The massive fear debuff is not useful in any way if you have no units with which to kill the enemy. In this sense then, AotD is just a delayer power, useful to hold the enemy off for a bit, but only a temporary stopgap measure. In other words, if you are hurting already, this power will hold the enemy off for a bit, but not long enough, and then you will die. Offensively... it might be a bit more useful, esp when attacking an enemy base.

I think that the dark tower spell is genius! It is pretty powerful, but in a roundabout way with its leadership and nazgul, and rhun options. Nevertheless... I have yet to see a cp use it.

the Three hunters is great, useful but time-limited. Saruman of the Many Colors is also good - it gives Isenguard the hero boost I think it needs a bit. I am also a big fan of no balrog. Though loved by many... it was just too powerful.

Edited by Negthareas, 04 April 2012 - 06:44 PM.


#15 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:58 AM

I think the balance of rohan infanty could use a buff. im delighted at the focus on rohan as a cavalry faction, but i think at the moment the use of any infantry is problematic. The defenders of the wold purchase is quite expensice which by the time you get them out they are generally completely outclassed. Also having lost the ability to heal rohan infantry quickly falls. I think maybe removing the defenders of the wold purchase and replacing draft with either a heal or defensive power would help greatly. Also to change the rohan peasant to a 'drafted peasant' straight out the farm would also be beneficial. I dont think it would take too much away from rohan as a cavalry faction but would make the infantry option a little more feasible if your short of cash for cavalry.

#16 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:16 AM

On second thought, to keep the spell books unique, how about turning draft into a power that A- enables drafted peasants to be brought straight out of a farm, B- replaces the Defenders of the wold purchase and C- is required to purchase yeoman archers? I think this would help early game Rohan infantry out by removing the expensive wold purchases whilst helping to create the image of Rohan infantry being civilians that had to don arms.

#17 Nertea

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:33 PM

Well, I like that better than the previous idea. I'll consider it for some far future version.

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