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The Essential Guide to Warfare


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#61 Zeta1127

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:28 PM

Ah, so what Jason Fry is basically saying is, unless it is a drastically different design, its an ISD. Well, guess what, we already know that there were numerous classes of Imperial Star Destroyers (a generalization for the Empire's various Star Destroyer classes) at Byss, but what about the Allegiance, the command ship for the World Devastators during the Battle of Mon Calamari, or the Eclipse's pair of escorts during the Battle of Pinnacle Base? Based on his statement, the Allegiance and the Eclipse's pair of escorts are either poorly scaled Imperial-class Star Destroyers or Allegiance-class Star Battlecruisers.
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#62 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:42 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the art in DE is merely a means to an end. We know Rothana built bigger ships than the Acclamator, and it would be neat if those designs could be quantified into something that could be used in continuity. DE depicts background ships with Rothana command towers; put the two together and instant retcon.

#63 anakinskysolo

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:07 AM

I believe that we need people like you to participate in the theforce.net forums. This guy, Thrawn McEwok, is the co-author of Warfare because Fry picked him up because he thought he knew a lot about SW warfare given his posts on the forums. I believe that PR and his team may know much more, especially because of all what you've researched for the development of the mod... I think that making yourselves a name in those forums will, perhaps, make authors like Fry feel that they could be assisted by you. McEwok wasn't the only one, there was a whole team of people from the forums Fry considered smart and informed, who helped write the book. I would love to see some of your ideas get into canon in the future, and I see no reason why they shouldn't. They really are what make the most sense, most of the times, of course.

#64 Zeta1127

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:59 AM

I guess I need to get on theforce.net in order to get something done about EU minimalism, or to at least fix its results, even though I am afraid of that place, so much negativity there among other things.
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#65 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 03:46 AM

Appreciate the vote of confidence. You know, I've been modding longer than TFN has been around, but I never registered on their forums. I guess I'm just more interested in doing it than debating it. McEwok is good though, from what I've seen from him.

#66 Kitkun

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 05:28 AM

Seconded. As someone who thinks way too deeply on these types of things, (And likes to argue) it's nice to find that there are those who also don't like to cut corners on the details.

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#67 P.O._210877

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 05:45 AM

Based on his statement, the Allegiance and the Eclipse's pair of escorts are either poorly scaled Imperial-class Star Destroyers or Allegiance-class Star Battlecruisers.


The later I believe, While the Allegiance-class isn't mentioned (I haven't finished reading the book so...), but it is shown on a painting. So I would presume that since it made the book as an illustration; it stands to reason that he was aware of the difference between the size of the classes. To be fair to him though, he did say he was referring to the ships that are mostly silhouettes or oddly depicted.

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#68 anakinskysolo

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:48 AM

I guess I need to get on theforce.net in order to get something done about EU minimalism, or to at least fix its results, even though I am afraid of that place, so much negativity there among other things.


I see you did get into the forums. That's great.

#69 Zeta1127

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:12 AM

I see you did get into the forums. That's great.

Yes, I am now on theforce.net, even though I refuse to accept things like TCW and the Legacy novel series.

Edited by Zeta1127, 18 April 2012 - 09:12 AM.

"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#70 anakinskysolo

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:43 AM

I see you did get into the forums. That's great.

Yes, I am now on theforce.net, even though I refuse to accept things like TCW and the Legacy novel series.


May I ask why you don't accept the Legacy novel series? I understand about TCW, and I am also conscious about the far from perfect quality of the Legacy novels, but I have much more trouble accepting TCW and the Legacy comics than the Legacy of the Force series. I don't find them that bad to refuse to accept them. I believe there are really, really worse things in SW canon than that series (Jedi Prince series comes to mind instantly :thumbsupxd: ).

#71 Zeta1127

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:24 AM

May I ask why you don't accept the Legacy novel series? I understand about TCW, and I am also conscious about the far from perfect quality of the Legacy novels, but I have much more trouble accepting TCW and the Legacy comics than the Legacy of the Force series. I don't find them that bad to refuse to accept them. I believe there are really, really worse things in SW canon than that series (Jedi Prince series comes to mind instantly :thumbsupxd: ).


I meant both of the Legacy era novel series, LotF and FotJ, and the Legacy comics, not just LotF. I don't like them very much, because I don't like the direct they took the story. Though I must say that I do like several things, like the new X-wing series variants, and the Star Defenders.

Spoiler

Edited by Zeta1127, 21 April 2012 - 06:46 AM.

"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#72 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:34 AM

Jedi Prince is just a fairytale told to the Solo children, Jedi Prince is just a fairytale told to the Solo children, Jedi Prince... :xx:. I read those when I was in middle school and I still get nightmares. (At least they referenced the PX-10.)

Okay, back to EGtW.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 21 April 2012 - 05:36 AM.


#73 johnchm.10

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 03:50 PM

im kinda surprised theyre even writing anything thats not TCW. especially since it seems that GL has a hard on for it nowadays

can't help but feel like the south park guys had the right idea


Edited by johnchm.10, 21 April 2012 - 03:58 PM.


#74 smashedsaturn

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:44 PM

May I ask why you don't accept the Legacy novel series? I understand about TCW, and I am also conscious about the far from perfect quality of the Legacy novels, but I have much more trouble accepting TCW and the Legacy comics than the Legacy of the Force series. I don't find them that bad to refuse to accept them. I believe there are really, really worse things in SW canon than that series (Jedi Prince series comes to mind instantly :thumbsupxd: ).


I meant both of the Legacy era novel series, LotF and FotJ, and the Legacy comics, not just LotF. I don't like them very much, because I don't like the direct they took the story. Though I must say that I do like several things, like the new X-wing series variants, and the Star Defenders.

Spoiler

what pissed me off is that Luke didn't go and put him in his rightful place when he crushed his chair during one of their confrontations... he could have and it would have been so much better of a story. Also, while I like learning about the Celestials Abeloth and the sith tribe are just freaking retarded...
oh and I think it's time to stop having the 60+ year old han solo being in the same condition he was in the GCW....

Edited by smashedsaturn, 21 April 2012 - 04:46 PM.


#75 Zeta1127

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:01 PM

After I finished the NJO, I was hesitant to read anything else, and by that point I was a little behind on Star Wars novels anyway. When I started to discover what was happening, the more I looked into the novels, the more I didn't want to read them, and now I know I almost certainly won't be reading anything from the Legacy era ever.
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#76 johnchm.10

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:51 PM

last book i read chronologically was Unifying Force. kinda figured that anything after that would have to have some form of insane or stupid plot which might result in the deaths of much beloved characters, or other weird happenings. everything afterwards, i just get the sum. from wookiepedia. Im almost expecting some kind of Star Trek-esque time travel story, where Jar-Jar goes back in time to screw up everything (AGAIN), and its up to Luke, Ben, and the Force Ghost of Qui-Gon Jinn to stop him.

I dont know if i want to read Mercy Kill at this point, even though its part of the excellent X-wing Series.

Edited by johnchm.10, 21 April 2012 - 10:00 PM.


#77 Zeta1127

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:23 AM

last book i read chronologically was Unifying Force. kinda figured that anything after that would have to have some form of insane or stupid plot which might result in the deaths of much beloved characters, or other weird happenings. everything afterwards, i just get the sum. from wookiepedia. Im almost expecting some kind of Star Trek-esque time travel story, where Jar-Jar goes back in time to screw up everything (AGAIN), and its up to Luke, Ben, and the Force Ghost of Qui-Gon Jinn to stop him.

I dont know if i want to read Mercy Kill at this point, even though its part of the excellent X-wing Series.

I am in the same position with regards to Mercy Kill, johnchm.10. The Thrawn Trilogy, the Hand of Thrawn Duology, the X-wing series, and the Black Fleet Crisis were far superior to anything Del-Rey has come up with so far, though some of the NJO books were great. The way Del-Rey has been doing things is really the difference for me in why I like the Bantam novels better, nonsense like The New Rebellion notwithstanding. The lack of an appearance by the New Class ships in the NJO, as I have mentioned, is one of the issues not related to plot that I was really hoping EGtW would tackle, besides EU minimalism in general, but I don't know if that has happened yet.
"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango Fett
"You are fooling yourself, Captain. Nothing here is what it seems. You are not the plucky hero, the Alliance is not an evil empire, and this is not the grand arena."
"And that's not incense." - The Operative and Inara Serra
"What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet maybe. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?" - Galadriel
Clone Marshal Commander Zeta 1127 of the 89th Legion
Admiral Zebulon Wilhelm of Task Force Mystic/Fleet Junkie

#78 johnchm.10

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 05:37 AM

you'd think that having a squad of K-wings would help out. (gonna assume each hardpoint has a torpedo launcher) its not like being able to send out over 200 torpedoes at once is that important. let alone having vessels that were designed from the get-go to take on ships considerably larger then themselves. but no. most advanced fighters (not including modernized versions of the X-wing) are E-wings. (not gonna count the Clawcraft, as they were few in the NJO books.) and don't even get me started on the killing of Chewbacca. there are plenty of other characters who could have been killed off, and there would have been much rejoicing (jar-jar), or at least still sadness, but not nearly as much (one of the generals or admirals like Reiken or Salm).
and only bringing back Ackbar after the fraking capital of the entire New Republic has fallen, and not having him partner up with Pallaeon for some super-awesome method of wiping out the Vong and sending them back to the deep pit of hell from whence they came; travesty

Edited by johnchm.10, 22 April 2012 - 06:17 AM.


#79 MinofDefense

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:48 PM

What really annoyed me about the post-NJO books and comics is that we have hidden Sith plots and conspiracies popping up every few years or some great universal evil corrupting the balance in the galaxy and the Force. Aside from being incredibly repetitive, it strains credibility. First we have Lumiya in the shadows corrupting Jacen, BUT WAIT, there's a whole planet of Sith out there waiting for a chance to re-emerge, BUT WAIT, there's a life-consuming galactic force of evil out there, BUT WAIT, there's another hidden sect of Sith who are dormant and waiting to overthrow everything (and eventually do).

The idea that the writers feel the need to shoehorn in a Sith plot or colossal evil force as the driving force of conflict for each arc is ridiculous. It's stupid to think that a good character can go bad only because there's some dark force corrupting him/her as part of a master plan or there's some retconned explanation that requires knowledge of other previously unrelated dark forces. The galaxy doesn't need to be threatened every 3-4 years. 99% of what Jedi, military officers, and politicians do is deal with local problems that if unchecked could lead to some nasty effects at the sector level. Sure it's not as epic as the whole galaxy threatening to be consumed or whatnot, but those stories can still pack plenty of drama, fun, and excitement into them.


Also the lack of adequate descriptions and details for the new generations of warships and fighters is definitely a pain, and it leads to continuity issues between books. Likewise the failure to utilize certain ships is kinda galling. The K-Wing with its immense and diverse payload could easily be considered a consummate anti-Vong fighter because such a payload could easily overload and confuse a dovin basal. But no, we hear nothing about them being used to any effect.

One problem with planning out ridiculously long story arcs that have the New Republic or Galactic Alliance or something sink to a point of near-death is that you essentially have to say "Oh all of these ships and tactics are rubbish" without giving much detail or thought into why they are rubbish other than for plot purposes.

Edited by MinofDefense, 22 April 2012 - 02:48 PM.


#80 Kitkun

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:58 PM

Personally, I just stopped reading at the start of the whole Vong thing.

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