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Newtonian Space Physics


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Poll: Space Physics

Should there be limit(s) to linear velocity in space?

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If so, how should it be implemented?

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#1 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:44 PM

The rules for space are slated to change in v1.3; to what extent, I don't yet know. Very little of it is untouchable.

Before I make any changes to movement stats, I wanted to open the debate to the public on the ingrained notion that ships in games need speed limits (realspace speed of light notwithstanding). In practice, this would be the difference between using MGLT+MGLT/s and G. Please elaborate on your position when you vote.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 23 April 2012 - 03:42 AM.


#2 evilbobthebob

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 10:56 PM

I voted yes, because I would be quite happy for pure acceleration to be implemented, partially because I'm a physicist and partly because it allows for more interesting manoeuvres with capital ships because they are not constrained by arbitrary top speeds. On the other hand, from a gameplay perspective, I fully understand why top speeds are useful. It allows for more obvious definition between ship classes and probably works better with the game engine. I think playtesting will truly show the viability of this approach to velocities in space.

Edited by evilbobthebob, 20 April 2012 - 10:57 PM.

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#3 Tropical Bob

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:30 PM

I'm torn on it. While it would definitely be interesting, there could be factors in play that force a max speed. Who knows what affects artificial gravity or inertial compensators have on ships, especially as the sizes go up, in regards to things like stresses on the ships' superstructures.

How would something like a lack of a max speed have on starfighter dogfighting? Would they infinitely accelerate while in the snowball? That would be entirely inappropriate due to the combat maneuvering required.

#4 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:33 PM

If we commit to using G, it would be difficult to revert. All upgrade lines would need to be reworked. Certainly, I can conduct limited tests without top speeds though. There's much leeway in the factor used to convert G to Alamo units.

I'm not certain, but I think dogfights make use of the min speed stat (currently just max speed / 3). That could be set arbitrarily if needed.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 20 April 2012 - 11:35 PM.


#5 evilbobthebob

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:39 PM

What worries me engine-wise is its propensity to wait for a unit to reach top speed before it turns. To see this in effect, turn on power to engines on a corvette and try to tell it to go in the opposite direction to its facing. It goes in a long straight line before turning fast.

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#6 Hostile

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:13 AM

For game play purposes I'm all for a max speed. It's a game and there have to be limitations.

#7 johnchm.10

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:27 AM

i think the velocity limit may be due more to practicality than science.
the engines may have some form of governor to limit their maximum speed. i can think of a number of sound reasons for this
while yes there is no inertia in space, these ships are still very massive, and there are still stresses acting on the ship, albeit not as great as in an atmosphere with gravity, and ships are expected to operate at least near a planet if not in the atmosphere, so you wouldnt want the ship coming apart at the welds.
granted space is as close to absolute zero as you could get, but those engines have to be running awfully hot, so they may limit the speed of a craft based on an arbitrary expectation of how long a component like a turbine would last, yet still be useful
lastly, their sensors/communications equipment
assuming that their gear works in a manner similar to RADAR and Radio, they can only have an optimal detection range. think of it like this
youre traveling in a car going 360 KPH. thats 100 meters a second. then you see an elderly lady walking her dog about 300 meters away and theyre directly in front of you, the maximum practical and effective range for seeing a man size target and being able to hit it with an unscoped rifle. assuming that you have normal reaction time, itll take about a second for the lady and her dog to register in your brain as an obstacle. 200 meters left. you then brake, but you know its not going to be enough. then you try to swerve out of the way.
to make a long story short, their detection and communication equipment may have the same practical limitations as our modern day radios do, in that their instantaneous speed limits the reliability of the transmission.

#8 smashedsaturn

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 03:01 AM

get rid of them, it has always bugged me and I feel like it would allow ships such as the Bullwark and Preator to transverse the map a good deal better

#9 P.O._210877

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 03:30 AM

Certainly, I can conduct limited tests


That, in my opinion, is the best way to proceed. First, we need to experience the differences, empirically; then we need to ask ourselves: what feels Star Wars? - The established goal of this mod is to recreate as closely as possible the Star Wars universe, right? - So, I believe, the possible avenues should be made available for testing by members that are interested in doing so. Then, we would be informed enough to answer the above question. ;)

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#10 anakinskysolo

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:09 AM

i think the velocity limit may be due more to practicality than science.
the engines may have some form of governor to limit their maximum speed. i can think of a number of sound reasons for this
while yes there is no inertia in space these ships are still very massive, and there are still stresses acting on the ship


There is no inertia in space? Huh? And if there is no inertia (which is a property inherent to all matter that has mass, and is defined as the resistance to acceleration) there would be no stresses whatsoever acting on the ship. I believe you should review your physics.

I voted no, and I remember making a thread a couple of years ago proposing this change. However, I'm kind of reconsidering my vote because Star Wars is bad physics from any point of view, and if ships do not have top speeds because of physics, then we would start addressing issues like how the hell do ships reduce their speeds or stop if they only have one set of engines, or how they turn and roll and stuff like that. There is so much wrong with Star Wars physics that perhaps its best to accept we are talking about a parallel universe with different laws of physics and such (that really isn't possible either, because the laws seem to apply in some places but not in others, but anyway, in our minds it is :p). We can even start talking about relativistic effects or as to why the Empire constructed a Death Star if they could simply smash a ship traveling close to the speed of light into a planet and destroy it... So the argument for eliminating top speeds because of the physics is really not consistent. However, I would test the idea to see how it affects gameplay, perhaps it has a positive effect, I don't know. What I think is most important, having said all that, is to examine closely which of the interpretations is the most canonical, as I believe that in the strictest sense, they are not compatible with each other. The most canonical interpretation is the one that should be used, in any case.

#11 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

To clarify, this isn't a argument of canon so much as gameplay. Current sourcebooks, like The New Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels and Complete Cross-Sections, list speeds in terms of G. It's only tabletop and video games that introduce the idea of a "top speed" or a "standard move" per unit in space. I can't think of a given justification for it existing outside of game mechanics, which are non-canon.

Modern shields seem to thwart lightspeed collisions. Three Imperial-class Star Destroyers exiting hyperspace could not penetrate the Executor's shields. There's also the case of Pammant - which was presumably without a planetary shield.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 21 April 2012 - 10:41 PM.


#12 P.O._210877

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:07 AM

then we would start addressing issues like how the hell do ships reduce their speeds or stop if they only have one set of engines, or how they turn and roll and stuff like that.


My take on that would be, as follows: They have access to an understanding of space-time soooo! beyond our own and they have suuuch! high technologies, that what is possible for them seems totally out of whack from our perspective. That goes for the seemingly illogical decisions that pop-up here and there, it is always possible to explain anything in sci-fi.

Isn't, all that you perceive IS true from a certain point of view (mainly the one you're focusing on in the present), one of the founding principles of Star Wars?

If something in Star Wars has "unrealistic" behaviours, then that means that there's some technology(ies) involved that we do not grasp; or the Force has something to do with it...

All I'm trying to say is not to engage in the pointless debate, from my perspective of course :wink_new: , of canon vs reality vs compromises. The important thing is that we agree on whichever solution FEELS the most like Star Wars, IS the right one.

The New Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels and Complete Cross-Sections, list speeds in terms of G. It's only tabletop and video games that introduce the idea of a "top speed" or a "standard move" per unit in space. I can't think of a given justification for it existing outside of game mechanics, which are non-canon.


From my point of view, both have the same credibility. The guides are products aimed at a general public. They need to impart information, in "layman's" terms, from a fan's point of view of course. Try making a sales pitch to an editor while presenting your info in MGLT or RU, to only name those ( and remember, general public...). So they take real life physical values, inflate them to a point where most readers will say: Wow! that's badass! , and voilà. How much canon should we consider those stats? And, by the same token, you are totally right about the game mechanics, completely arbitrary, just happened to fit a need once, when another decision process was taking place; maybe not unlike this one...

So I think it's time to flesh out, or continue to flesh out if you will, the terms and boundaries of P-Canon. Let's have a go at each option and let the testing be the ultimate judge of what should be done.

Edited by P.O._210877, 21 April 2012 - 07:12 AM.

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pas que la planète bleue soit mise à feu et à sang par ces monstres. Je
me battrai pour les empêcher de détruire ce qui est devenue ma Terre.
Goldorak m'aidera. Au besoin, j'irai jusqu'au camp de la Lune Noire
puisque c'est là que Véga et ses monstres ont établi leur base. Et je la
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#13 johnchm.10

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 03:39 PM

i think the velocity limit may be due more to practicality than science.
the engines may have some form of governor to limit their maximum speed. i can think of a number of sound reasons for this
while yes there is no inertia in space these ships are still very massive, and there are still stresses acting on the ship


There is no inertia in space? Huh? And if there is no inertia (which is a property inherent to all matter that has mass, and is defined as the resistance to acceleration) there would be no stresses whatsoever acting on the ship. I believe you should review your physics.


yeah, i was extremely tired at the time, so theres probably a few holes in that statement. had just gotten off of a 40 hour marathon of school work, watch standing (i go to a quazi-military institution), traveling, and doing the work my family is too lazy to do. although looking back, my statement may be salvageable. i cannot seem to recall any vessel that didnt have an artificial gravity system, baring improvised vehicles, like the Lunatic from Wraith Squadron. granted the systems are likely only active in the interior of the ship, but they could presumably extend to the exterior of the hull, meaning that gravity, albeit localized, may still be a force to be dealt with.

#14 SDS/Spencer

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:47 PM

going foward with no max is realistic-expseically with a ISD with its gigantic engines-the real problem is maneurving, you need propulsion systems throughout the ship to make it turn, exspeically with its large mass, so although its foward momentum/speed could be literally bound less, but how do they turn? in star wars you can see this problem with the isd when chasing han solo, they could go faster then him easily, but they couldnt turn at all, and thats were the smaller ships win-then

how are they causing the gravity in star wars? since none of the vehicles have the mass needed to cause a large amount of gravity and very few-other then the Death star, would be rotating to somewhat cause gravity since none of the ships are "spherical"- most look like aircraft or ships,

Also do we know how George Lucas or Lucas arts explain how the ships move between solar systems? ovbiously they say they go to "light speed" but that wouldn't be fast enough to get between solar systems, the ships must have some type of equipment that makes the space between point a-where they are-and point B where they are going-become smaller or "squeeze" it closer together,

REally i jsut say keep the max speeds up, but make them more like how star wars made it look, ISD "CAN" go as fast as Han Solo's Falcon, but make their acceleration and turning abilitys lower

only changes to speed/acceleration/turning ratio/ etc should be to change the max speeds and maybe make the capitals able to go faster-just one it takes a long time to get to that speed, two it takes forever to turn,

LASt Point-JohnCm gave an example of a car and that is right-in battle the ships can only go so fast due to the limitations of the species on the ship-and if i look at that point it makes you think that in reality and the speeds the fighters and capitals could go at that the Confederation would massacre the Republic considering how droids can msot likely process things a couple thousand times faster?

got off topic but Last thing again-@Anakinskysolo-the ship to destroy a planet would have to be about 20 or more miles long-BUT to destroy all major life would only have to be approximatly 2km-6km-(this is when it hits-not when it reaches the atmosphere of said planet and would reduce it radically)- 2-6km is about the size of a metoroite needed to kill all substanistial life on Earth, millions of small animals "maybe" and billions of bacteria would live, the metorite that is said to have impacted earth and killed all the dinosaurs was around that range-so maybe the Empire wanted to destroy a planet completly and erase almost all evidence of it, since said bacteria after a few billion years would once again make large life, what people don't is the spped that these metorites are going, the metorite is going around 16,000 feet per second, the kinetic energy is extremly massive and would likely tilt Earth slighty and might cause a moon

Edited by SDS/Spencer, 21 April 2012 - 09:17 PM.


#15 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:41 PM

Ships have tiny maneuvering jets to accomplish yaw/pitch/roll. This is a separate system from the main drive.

Hyperspace is an alternate dimension of reality in which tachyonic matter resides. "Lightspeed" is a colloquialism.

#16 Tropical Bob

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:50 PM

To clarify, this isn't a argument of canon so much as gameplay

I see. In that case, it all comes down to, as P.O._210877 said, trying out how the 'limitless speed' works, and going from there. In the end, to see whether PR's community desires it, make an optional mod to introduce it and see what happens.

#17 Kitkun

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 12:20 AM

What worries me engine-wise is its propensity to wait for a unit to reach top speed before it turns. To see this in effect, turn on power to engines on a corvette and try to tell it to go in the opposite direction to its facing. It goes in a long straight line before turning fast.

This. Ships with high top speed and low acceleration are a pain to maneuver already because of it. I lost many a ship of this kind because they proceed to drive way beyond enemy lines when I want them to move a little to the left.

Edited by Kitkun, 22 April 2012 - 12:20 AM.

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#18 Piet-Tia

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:43 PM

Kitkun mentioned an interesting point. I don't remember ships in PR 1.1 being so lazy when it comes to turning. Now if I select my whole fleet and order them to fall back then most of the ships start traveling forward (that means in most cases onto the enemy) before beginning to turn only AFTER they reached their max speeds (or so I presume). A completely different point which I already mentioned: some of them have insanely good turning stats (like the IPV which turns almost on the spot but also has to speed up first). Has something changed between 1.1 and 1.2 in that regard?

I also have a question regarding the idea of "no max speed". Does this mean that ships would be able to go faster indefinitely? Would this count in a straight line only or regardless of turning? In the second case the turning radius should be higher at faster speeds. Can this be done? Also what about the problem that you can bring a ship to a stop in an instant (for example if you order it to attack something in its range). This would probably unbalance the whole "infinite speed-poor maneuvering" idea.

As a side note to Kitkun you can always order your ships to turn first (holding the mouse button on them and moving the cursor slightly in the direction you want it to face) and THEN initiating acceleration. Granted, you mostly have to do it with each ship separately and it's a pain in the... hand but it's a way out nonetheless.

#19 SDS/Spencer

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 05:11 PM

Ships have tiny maneuvering jets to accomplish yaw/pitch/roll. This is a separate system from the main drive.

Hyperspace is an alternate dimension of reality in which tachyonic matter resides. "Lightspeed" is a colloquialism.


ahh after watching the 3rd movie saturday i noticed that a bit too late:( lol haven't actually ever gone to just watch the movies in a while so yea....
that point of mine was useless anyway,

towards the maneuvering jets, plus they will require alot of energy or some form of propulsion

ahh screw it, to look into this you have to look at thousands of variables-which i doubt anyone is going to do and i just voted to keep the max stats or velocity since it makes the game more like the movies, and the game play although unrealistic is benefited in my opinion by it-although i would personally like the max stats or larger ships to not be so slow

Edited by SDS/Spencer, 22 April 2012 - 05:25 PM.


#20 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 05:12 PM

Yeah, ships accelerate and move faster relative to the map in v1.2, but the ratios are the same. So that's a little perplexing. Fortunately, there are a couple of land tags I can borrow: Stopped_Rate_Of_Turn and Min_Speed_Fraction_For_Turn.



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