37 replies to this topic

[Casen]

I didn't say "multiple armaments". There's no good way to show a separate land armament from galactic and I'm not willing to design and balance them out for every bomber variant.

Are you talking about the description? I think that's a minor issue and does not justify not allowing the Y-Wing and TIE Bomber to use proton bombs on ground targets. I mean aren't Proton Bombs a TIE Bomber trademark?

[Phoenix Rising]

It's not just the description, but also the fact that each armament would need to be designed twice. We're using proton bombs as superheavy warheads with five times the payload of torpedoes - they can't just be subbed 1:1. Plus, if they can be fired all the time on land, then why the scarcity in space?

Forget the nomenclature for a second. I think perhaps your issue is more with the launch method than the ordnance. To be clear, I do mean "launch method", since those bombs in ESB aren't freefalling in an asteroid field...

[Casen]

Oh no I meant the Y-Wing and the TIE Bomber JUST use their proton bombs in land battles, not their proton torpedos/proton rockets/concussion missiles.

My idea is as follows:

Y-Wing
Fires Proton Torpedos (Proton Rockets when upgraded) in Space Tactical.
Drops Proton Bombs in Land Tactical.

TIE Bomber
Uses Proton Torpedos & Concussion Missiles in Space Tactical.
Drops Proton Bombs in Land Tactical.

Simple, right? In addition they can use their energy weapons, such as their lasers and ion cannons, in Land Tactical.

It's not just the description, but also the fact that each armament would need to be designed twice. We're using proton bombs as superheavy warheads with five times the payload of torpedoes - they can't just be subbed 1:1. Plus, if they can be fired all the time on land, then why the scarcity in space?

I know it is, objectively, arbitrary but to be perfectly honest I do not see the issue. I think Proton Bombs in space are in most cases impractical due to their lack of speed so you can assume 99% of the time they'll be relegated to planetary bombardment, so that if a bomber that is capable of being loaded with Proton Bombs is dispatched for ground suppression they will be loaded with such.

A lot of things in Phoenix Rising are already arbitrary. I mean I believe it is totally canonical to load Proton Rockets into the general purpose warhead launchers on the TIE Defender - your argument implies that we should be replacing proton torpedoes with proton rockets. I

I don't really think that we are implying that Proton Bombs are scarce (they really aren't), I just think due to their speed their utility in space is limited in an official function - I can see pirates just lobbing Proton Bombs using momentum because they don't have any standards. At least in universe the excuse is that they have no propulsion and are probably inefficient as ship to ship. I guess in my head I don't really class Proton Bombs as a "logical advancement" of Proton Rockets because they are more or less entirely different weapons.

From what I know the only units that currently have Proton Bombs in the mod are the Acclamator and illegal Y-Wings, and all use them in space.

As for scripting, what's the issue? In the original game this is pretty much what they did anyway (albeit the bombs looked retarded, not like blue spheres).

The only thing that I sorta do understand is the prioritization of bombers; some people may find Y-Wings superior bombers then, but I think prioritization is already an issue as is so I don't think it is enough justification in itself to not have Proton Bombs in Land Tactical. I generally just end up leaving nothing but the bombers I ideally want for the Land Tactical in space after the Space Tactical mission, moving other bombers to another planet, before attacking the base on land.

(Slightly unrelated B-Wings don't look right at all as ground attack ships.)

I think perhaps your issue is more with the launch method than the ordnance. To be clear, I do mean "launch method", since those bombs in ESB aren't freefalling in an asteroid field...

1. I presumed that the asteroid they were dropping bombs on in Empire Strikes Back had enough gravity, albeit granted they were indeed falling fairly fast.

2. Proton Bombs are a distinct warhead with no propulsion. Y-Wings in the Rogue Squadron games carry them, for instance.

Edited by Kacen, 09 May 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Kitkun]

Hmm, even if that still brought the TIE Bomber and Y-Wing to the fore as the best at ground attack, I think that would actually be a good thing. Right now the K-Wing and Nova Wing are kind of the be-all end-all of projectile based ships. Even if expensive, they're just so powerful and versatile... probably still a bit too good.

Those bombs in ESB certainly are falling too fast to not be launched, but on the other hand, they really should be rupturing at least parts of the asteroid, too. They're horrendously slow in the mod still, as I recall.

And B-Wings have always looked funny.

[Casen]

And B-Wings have always looked funny.

Yeah but they look alright in space. Strafing ground targets, however, just looks totally wrong. Their primary purpose is to attack capital ships.

EDIT: Also truth be told I don't really think the Nova Wing should be used as ground attack - I mean is it not first and foremost a unique missile fighter?

Edited by Kacen, 10 May 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[P.O._210877]

I must say that I agree with Kacen and Kitkun. Plus, the yield of the bombs must be variable, meaning that those commonly used on the ground are less powerful versions of those used in space. After all, who wants to drop bombs that would atomize the squadron that launched them? And to be totally fair, carpet bombing is canonical; I know how a lot of you feel about TCW show but they did use Y-Wings on an air strike called in by ground units; it did look like the bombing runs from the game to be honest.

And please, I only mentioned TCW as a canon source, let's not start another round of bashing/hating/flaming.

[evilbobthebob]

It's really a choice between aimed and not-aimed bombing runs. I can see the appeal of both, but both have an unfortunate randomness. Simple carpet bombing has its corridor defined by the rather opaque method of finding the furthest edge point from the chosen location. Aimed proton torpedoes rely on the targeting priorities of the bombers and what is between map entry and the location the player wants to be bombed.

[Phoenix Rising]

The main problem is that if/when all bomber variants are turned into bombing runs, there's nowhere else to go with advanced, rocket, and bomb. Okay, yes, I've imposed a scarcity on these warheads - the increase in damage counts as part of the upgrade process - but this is no different than a faction's inability to equip its troops with StarAnvils and thermal detonators. The alternative would be to not allow warheads to upgrade.

I'm just not sold on the assertion that proton bombs operate differently than torpedoes. Even if they did, what makes Y-wings and TIE/sas special enough to equip them in favor of the others? I guarantee K-wings could affix proton bombs too.

[skie9173]

Hover your mouse over a planet's income. A detailed list of where that income comes from will be displayed. Each station of any level now gives just 1 credit of income, meaning if you see "Shipyard 1 - 3 credits" it means that planet would have three shipyard level 1s. It really was a great idea.

[Casen]

The main problem is that if/when all bomber variants are turned into bombing runs, there's nowhere else to go with advanced, rocket, and bomb.

I just think it should be Y-Wings and TIE Bombers.

I'm just not sold on the assertion that proton bombs operate differently than torpedoes. Even if they did, what makes Y-wings and TIE/sas special enough to equip them in favor of the others? I guarantee K-wings could affix proton bombs too.

No other bomber in ether the New Republic/Rebel or Imperial inventory in any media is said, shown, or implied to drop proton bombs other than Y-Wings and TIE Bombers. TIE Targeters, perhaps. Scimitars I believe have small chutes for thermal detonators, but they are "known" and primarily intended to assault ground targets with barrages of concussion missiles - not bombs. B-Wings obviously don't have bomb chutes - they're not designed to attack ground, or even to be proficient in atmospheres. K-Wings are ground attack, but in the same sense as an A-10 Thunderbolt or Sukhoi Frogfoot - attack, not bomber.

I don't think bomb chutes are things that are easily modular. TIE Bombers for instance have the bomb chute built in - note the weird arm hanging off the bottom.

Edited by Kacen, 11 May 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[Zeta1127]

I just think it should be Y-Wings and TIE Bombers.

Oh, so the TIE Advanced line, notably the TIE Avenger and TIE Defender, don't count?

Edited by Zeta1127, 12 May 2012 - 02:52 AM.

[Phoenix Rising]

I guess I'd be more open to an argument for or against using quasi-freefalling proton torpedoes (and other warheads) in bombing runs.

It really was a great idea.

It was Reedek's.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 12 May 2012 - 01:36 AM.

[Kitkun]

The main problem is that if/when all bomber variants are turned into bombing runs, there's nowhere else to go with advanced, rocket, and bomb.

Oh, so the TIE Advanced line, notably the TIE Avenger and TIE Defender, don't count?

Not really sure what is meant on these. I confused.

Anyways, they are generally seen using quasi-freefalling something, at least.

Edited by Kitkun, 12 May 2012 - 02:41 AM.

[Zeta1127]

Not really sure what is meant on these. I confused.

Anyways, they are generally seen using quasi-freefalling something, at least.

I was referring to Kacen's post just before mine. I will edit it to reflect that.

[Phoenix Rising]

If torpedoes are readily converted to bombs on land, how would I then convert warhead upgrades (such as BTL-S6 Y-wing rockets) while preserving the DPS increase (and not overloading launchers to silly amounts)? Half the point of bombers is that they enable bombing runs - automatic proton bombs makes upgrading moot.

[Kitkun]

Ah, now I get what you mean.
My guess as to how to justify making them separate is that the bombs would likely be cheap, dumb weapons loaded to the brim with explosives and designed to explode on impact or with a simple proximity/time fuze, whereas the missiles and torpedoes would need to fit engines and sophisticated avionics, making them a lot more expensive but able to get through standard ship jamming without having to get too close.

Anyways, couldn't you have them use thermal detonators or something like that?

Edited by Kitkun, 15 May 2012 - 06:57 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

I could, but it's essentially the same argument as proton bombs. I did it for Juno as a special case (64 thermal detonators puts DPS off the charts).