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Appeal to the actual BfME players


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#1 Goldtouch

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:03 PM

These days BfME has some well experienced modder/mappers. I find it very sad too see mod by mod people making the same mistake.

If you wanted to know the different's between a professional or an amateur designer: an amateur wants to add more, while the pro wants less.

Now into the BfME modding perspective most if not all modders add more factions, units, heroes, structures, powers and so forth.

I've made a simple mod where I don't change anything to the game play. (Patch 1.04) Before I released this patch most where against it and afraid/against the idea for even a little change. So I knew that I needed to be careful. Today everyone plays 1.04 over Gameranger. We get in my observations more hosted games than Rise of the Witch king has most of the time.

BfME is now abandon-ware so its up to the community to do something about it. In my search on improving the game more. I thought back to an idea I'm sure many have tried but so far none have made a version of BfME I on the sequels engine that actually can compete with the original game.

BfME is ready for a mod that includes an improved network code (BfME II engine) Improved graphics and faster unit responds.

Wouldn't you want a mod that appeals to the majority of the community.. Or more useful wouldn't you want such a project to be actually playable!



#2 Ridder Geel

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:45 PM

Hehe... Well then I'd say go ahead and make BFME 1 in BFME 2, if that is what you want.
I've done something like that for the RC Mod, but then again it is not the actual BFME 1 game. So yea if you want to do that, go ahead ;)
I've seen several projects that are playable... And ones that appeal to the majority of the community... so...yea... :xd:
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#3 Lauri

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:46 PM

And what features would that be? Or more importantly, how and why would it compete with the original game? For graphics, we can simply redo BFME's art already.. Do units respond slower in BFME as opposed to BFME2? In BFME2, units go through eachother all the time, as opposed to BFME1 where they hardly ever do it.. Do you intend to bring back building-plots exclusivly?

I just see talk, no plans or ideas. You want two improvements and one thing faster, that's all I see. And a lot of boasting.

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#4 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:06 PM

See what you've done now you've upset Lauri. :p

A word of advice don't come in posting to a modding forum and say that we're doing everything wrong and our mods aren't appealing.
We're making mistakes adding content to a game?
That's what mods do, they add and modify content.

BFME isn't abandon-ware around here especially considering some of the biggest projects are for BFME1.
The BFME modding and playing communities have always been estranged and likely always will be which is a shame for the players because they are missing out on opportunities to revitalise the game.
7 years is a long time to be using the same strategies.

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#5 Lauri

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:56 PM

Upset? No, just curious. I'd like to know why BFME would be better on BFME2, and how he would go about doing that. Graphics can become basically as good in both games, with the exception of Normal maps (hardly used\neccesary) and that nice water in BFME2.
I'm not sure what he means by improved network code, but if he's talking about the coding in general, well, then it already works.. Everything in BFME works in BFME2 aswell. Actually, no, it doesn't.. The AI is a fish in BFME2 compared to BFME, and cannot really be altered much. Yes, you can change things, a good bit too if you're good, but the AI is all yours to change in BFME.

Faster unit responds, still don't get that. I though he wanted BFME in BFME2, then why go about to change things?

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#6 Dúnedain76

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 02:59 AM

If you wanted to know the different's between a professional or an amateur designer: an amateur wants to add more, while the pro wants less.


So from what I see, you're basically saying that all the modders here are amateurs.

Please correct me if Im wrong.

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#7 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:12 AM

Mkay, I'm going to go through and hit all the points in your post. And fix errors and such. Because I'm OCD like that.

These days BfME has some well experienced modder/mappers. I find it very sad too see, mod to mod, people making the same mistake.

...We They aren't make making any 'mistakes'. Bugs are mistakes. They are doing what they want.

If you wanted to know the different's between a professional or an amateur designer: an amateur wants to add more, while the pro wants less.

In your mind. There is no 'real' definition of a 'professional'. I personally believe a professional is someone good at what they do, with more to it than that. But, I'm going to drop that part of the topic. Also, Ima gonna bring up a point about this sentence later.

Now into the BfME modding perspective most, if not all modders add more factions, units, heroes, structures, powers, and so forth.

...Because they want to. They do that because they want to. They want to change the game.

I've made a simple mod where I don't change anything to the game play. (Patch 1.04) Before I released this patch, most where against it and afraid of/against the idea of even a little change. So, I knew that I needed to be careful. Today, everyone plays 1.04 over at Gameranger. We get, in my observations, more hosted games than Rise of the Witch King has most of the time.

Mhm. So, it does nothing then. If it doesn't change gameplay, that means it CANNOT change a single value. Adding even ONE HP on ANYTHING changes gameplay. Plus, I never even heard of this 'patch'. I've heard that communities have made their own patches before, but usually, if you are in modding communities, you hear of them. Plus, never heard of this 'Gameranger' *quick google search*, and the fact that you don't really have evidence that you actually 'contributed'. Anyone can SAY they are this or that. It's hard to actually prove it. I mean, I can say I'm Barack Obama, but the only way for me to prove that is to have Barack Obama say 'I am Ring Of Fate*.'. *Name before it got randomly changed to O'*

BfME is now abandon-ware, so its up to the community to do something about it. In my search on improving the game more, I thought back to an idea I'm sure many have tried, but so far none have made a version of BfME I on the sequel's engine that actually can compete with the original game.

...Yes, it's been abandoned. Why? BECAUSE IT'S SO FREAKING OLD. Plus, there IS something that does that. I suggest you look at the RJ-ROTWK mod. Yes, it's been put on ice, but it's still good. Personally, I prefer BFME1 over BFME2. But that is just preference.

BfME is ready for a mod that includes an improved network code, (BfME II engine) improved graphics, and faster unit response.

Mhm. In short: I doubt, so what, and lol. In detail: 1. It still won't be able to take into consideration individual connections. Plus, hardcode. Crack that without hours and hours of work. 2. We They can just mod in better skins and such. Plus, BFME1 looks good on it's own. 3. Faster unit response? I always thought BFME1 was better with unit response. Opinions, opinions.

Wouldn't you want a mod that appeals to the majority of the community? Or more useful, wouldn't you want such a project to be actually playable?!

[Cynicism]
...Let me think about this.
How about no?
[/Cynicism]
People mod what they want. They don't what other people want. Yes, they might accept doing a request, or take a suggestion, but in the end, the modders have the DE FACTO say in what they do. Plus, most mods ARE playable. Or maybe you just don't notice that. Either way, you are in the wrong. And before you even start talking about 'bugs', your 'patch' can have LOADS of bugs too. Bugs are in EVERY FREAKING GAME IN THE WORLD. Get over it.

In closing, I'd like to say that we the modders mod what they think is fun and exciting. Don't like it? Tough. Yes, we would definantly like more exposure. So what the hell are you doing, telling people that they should stop making the mods THEY WANT, and make mods YOU WANT?!?!?! You should be ADVERTISING US TO THESE PEOPLE IF YOU SO MUCH HAVE A BIT OF INFLUENCE. Plus, you just called everyone amatures. Mature, aren't you.

tl;dr
Spoiler

...Sorry, just had to get that out there. I'm good now. :D

Edited by Ring o' Fate, 27 June 2012 - 04:14 AM.

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#8 Goldtouch

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:36 AM

We are all amateurs here anyway aren't we think about it.. Nobody here gets payed by hour for the service/modding work done on BfME, a game that isn't supported by its creators anymore nor its license holders..

Upset? No, just curious. I'd like to know why BFME would be better on BFME2, and how he would go about doing that. Graphics can become basically as good in both games, with the exception of Normal maps (hardly used\neccesary) and that nice water in BFME2.
I'm not sure what he means by improved network code, but if he's talking about the coding in general, well, then it already works.. Everything in BFME works in BFME2 aswell. Actually, no, it doesn't.. The AI is a fish in BFME2 compared to BFME, and cannot really be altered much. Yes, you can change things, a good bit too if you're good, but the AI is all yours to change in BFME.

Faster unit responds, still don't get that. I though he wanted BFME in BFME2, then why go about to change things?


Well I think that would be in the wrong category to list any features here.

The message I share here isn't just my opinion its what I've captured during the sharing of a mappack installer I made (with widescreen support) , where I did supported the3rdage.net in promoting the wonderful work done!
All the maps still includes all credits to their rightful owners.

If The3rdage.net was a business than all its products never reach to the actual costumer. The road to the customer doesn't exist... If there was you would get a strong sense on how good/proffesional your mod really is.

#9 Elric

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:36 AM

We are all amateurs here anyway aren't we think about it.. Nobody here gets payed by hour for the service/modding work done on BfME, a game that isn't supported by its creators anymore nor its license holders..


We dont get payed by the hour because modding is a hobby not a job. Its a choice. If i wanted to get paid for modding then sure it would be cool but then if i didnt do work i would get fired. Its a hobby because we can do work on our mods when we feel like it.

Some of us maybe be amateurs and some of us arent because we measure are ability to do something by comparing it to someone else. I wont call my self a professional because i still have a lot to learn :p. I wont call my self an amateur either because i know a lot about modding but there is always something NEW to learn...

True the makers of BFME dont have it in production any more but it doesnt mean its any less of a game.


Please correct me if i am wrong....

#10 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:25 AM

Although everything you say seems like **** to me... go ahead, bring along your mod and show us BFME on the BFMEII Engine is actually better, then you have the right to rant about this.



#11 Ridder Geel

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:38 AM

If The3rdage.net was a business than all its products never reach to the actual costumer. The road to the customer doesn't exist... If there was you would get a strong sense on how good/proffesional your mod really is.


Never reach an actual customer? I'd say check the amounts of downloads on many of our mods, and then, if you realize your sentence makes no sense, correct it.
I take my mod quite seriously, and just to be clear here, I AM on my way to becoming a professional programmer, and am treating my mod more like a professional project than before.
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#12 Lauri

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:44 AM

In the grand scale, BFME is a nut in the ocean.. I don't expect a grand army playing my mods, or a grand army of people knowing about it. I've even wondered why the hell I'm still modding, because there are so few left now, compared to the old days.. But it's fun to do, just as you find it fun to just balance things better\different. I don't want to add more and more factions, but I want to change the game. That's why I replace the 4 factions in BFME with 4 'new' factions in T4A. In TPW I am part of a top-notch group that get's rid of BFME2 and adds Sparta and Athens.

If you base all your thoughts on this by looking at Lone Wolf or most of the newcommer's ideas, then you really are getting a wrong picture of the whole BFME scene. Many people like to make ideas, more often than implenting them, so you can quickly end up with loads of factions with many heroes and units. Lone Wolf has done very well, but most others need a team to help their unstarted mod.

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#13 MattTheLegoman

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 12:47 PM

Obvious troll is obvious.

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#14 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:08 PM

Obvious troll is obvious.


No, that's the sad part, this probably isn't a troll...

#15 Mathijs

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:22 PM

Just a little pointer here: Our mods do reach the playerbase. We use moddb for that.

As far as I know, there are never more than 50 to 75 people online on Gameranger. TPW (the mod I'm working on) has nearly 2500 downloads on moddb and 64.000 views. TDH, with its two beta's has almost 10.000 downloads on moddb and 7000 on Filefront.

So I think that about invalidates your point.

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#16 Lauri

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:27 PM

He isn't a troll, no. He's right, we are all amateurs, nobody does this for any pay.

But he is full of himself. Comparing your 'mod' patch 1.04 to the amounts of people who play RotWK isn't really telling much... How is it compared to BFME, BFME2 or other popular mods?
Is your mod better than ours? I would like to see a list of things your mod do better than ours, since it appeals to the majority of the community and is playable, unlike ours.
And I'd still like a small list of things you want to do for your BFME -> BFME2 mod.

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#17 Mathijs

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:32 PM

I like his idea. Clean out BFME2, then put in everything that was in BFME1. You'd have a prettier, more responsive (I agree that BFME2 units function better) BFME1 with an improved online feature (at least for me, BFME2 online didn't synch out nearly as much as BFME1 did).

It's sort of like what we did with TPW except you don't have to do all the art or gameplay designing and with his ego you can still claim to be the best.

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#18 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:47 PM

His idea isn't bad, however I don't like him basically saying all our mods are bad.

Also if it were to be done, I think it should be so that people can actually mod that mod.

Edited by Ridder Blauw, 27 June 2012 - 01:58 PM.


#19 Nertea

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:04 PM

Massive overreaction to this here I think. I see very little insulting in his post. It does betray a basic misunderstanding of why people mod though. In general, we are selfish bastards that don't want to serve the community (:p), we'd just rather do what we want to do. It's not about reaching the customer, because the customer is the modder, to be honest. Download counts are just collateral damage, as far as I'm concerned.

Thorongil, most modders aren't interested in fixing the game. The whole reason we do it is to add what we want or change what we want. To us, I suppose that *is* fixing the game. I mean, I would love to see a perfectly done BFME1 -> BFME2 conversion. It'd be cool. It would be boring to do though, which is probably why it hasn't been done (sorry RG, don't think your BFME1 mode counts, it has too much extra content ;) ). This is basically a thinly veiled "do this for me" thread. And we all know how much we like those threads.

I get the feeling you want something competitively balanced, essentially. Which is hard. You'd have to rebalance things if you moved it to BFME2 - that's practically a fact, as the various mechanics would cause... problems. And then your target player base would complain. A lot, if the communities for various RTSes are any indication.

Also goddamn I will shoot the first first person here to say they're not an amateur. And the next person to misspell it. Professional == practicing a profession. Modding != profession.

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#20 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:19 PM

Download counts are just collateral damage, as far as I'm concerned.

It's more like Epeen I think.

Also goddamn I will shoot the first first person here to say they're not an amateur. And the next person to misspell it. Professional == practicing a profession. Modding != profession.

We're more like Amateurs who try to make professional quality work.
In terms of approach over the last year or so I think the bulk of the active mods have changed a bit and started treating their respective projects more professionally in terms of overall quality and marketing.

Numerous people have tried the BFME1 to BFME2 thing and they've all failed because it never gets out of the idea stage.
As Nertea said there are practical things that would have to be rebalanced.
For instance Fire Logic,Wall Climbing,Invisibility and the various improved coding all alter the game in some way.
Ultimately there's not really that much to be gained from a almost direct port of the game because the differences would be minor.

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