19 replies to this topic

[Gourbish]

Hi everybody,

I have a questioning about the site and the community...

Why are there so little things to downloads without the mods ?
I explain...

The community is really creative, making many mods with many ideas and various works.
But when we research downloads, we could find many big mods, and only some maps, and a very little models, skins and other things like that.

I think that there is many models created with each mod, many new objects and buildings, many skins, etc but it is impossible to know them without downloading each mod.

For other games (sports, RPG, other) it is possible to download a stadium, a kit, a skin, new objects, etc and it is possible to get mods, big patches, or big packs too.

Why isn't it done here ? I know that for code editing it could be difficult to separate and explain (even if if we would be accustomed to that it could be possible), but for the great artists who creates new skins, news models, new buildings, etc it is really possible to upload a work next to the mod for which it was realised.

Is there a "race mods" ? :-)
Or is it really a fear that the work could be used for "opposition" ? I don't really think that as modders help them.

For example, me, I'm making a small mod alone for me and my friend. So I don't think I will upload it someday as it will never become THE mod of the year and it is really small against mods made from many modders ! lol
But, I'd like to find some parts to help my creations. A model and a skin for one hero, a building for some units, etc.

I think you've understood what I mean, so I stop writing again and again... :-p


But I really think that this is something that is missing here !

Thank's for reading ! ;-)

Gourbish

[Lauri]

Because it would be boring if all mods used the same models and textures.

But there are quite a few selection of 'free' models and textures you can download here.
I have thought about giving out models that people can use in their mods, by giving credit, but it's not something I have gotten around to do. Currently, I don't even really have that many unused models either. I like to keep the stuff I make in my mods, or mods I help out.

[Gourbish]

I know the3rdage.net, and that's why I say that there are little downloads in comparison to the great number of mods.
It's a pity.
I understand what you say, but the interest of the community is to share. And as you share with a big mod, for example if I want to use your model it is always possible by getting your mod. So it is possible but more complicated.

And finally, all we do in modding, at the beginning it's a personnal pleasure, isn't it ? And after, it's a little pride to share it and to see it downloaded... ^^

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

You can ask mod owners if you can use their models/skins. Most of us are willing to let you borrow them in exchange for credit. However, you've a good point. Think I might start creating community models.

[Lauri]

I understand what you say, but the interest of the community is to share.

But is that the interest of the artist?

And as you share with a big mod, for example if I want to use your model it is always possible by getting your mod. So it is possible but more complicated.

Don't you see? Those models are in a mod, because they are for the mod. I don't want people to use my models, and especially not without asking. If they ask, I might allow them.

And finally, all we do in modding, at the beginning it's a personnal pleasure, isn't it ? And after, it's a little pride to share it and to see it downloaded... ^^

I don't work hard with my mod, only to see people to download it just to use my models for their own mods..

[Gourbish]

But is that the interest of the artist?

Don't you see? Those models are in a mod, because they are for the mod. I don't want people to use my models, and especially not without asking. If they ask, I might allow them.

I don't work hard with my mod, only to see people to download it just to use my models for their own mods..

Ok... I understand you, even if I don't totally agree. ^^

You can ask mod owners if you can use their models/skins. Most of us are willing to let you borrow them in exchange for credit. However, you've a good point. Think I might start creating community models.

Like you say (Lauri & FellbeastIII), I believe that when people asks for getting models or anything else, modders will surely be OK. But, in this case, there are 2 "problems" :
1) The only chance to know the different things created in a mod is to download it, and play it ! Because, screenshots and informations are not always enough to show all the work done in a mod.
2) After that, to get something, you'll need to download all the mod for only a part of it. Unless contacting the creator if he could give you the desired part. (For sure, the goal is not to separate all jobs of a mod either.)


Maybe one first thing that could be done to begin would be to upload a screenshot and a description for a stuff, and for the download link, it could refers to the mod where the stuff was realised. In this case, people could see your work, and he needs to contact you to get the stuff.
This would be a possibility. What do you think of that ?

[Lauri]

1) The only chance to know the different things created in a mod is to download it, and play it ! Because, screenshots and informations are not always enough to show all the work done in a mod.

I don't want people to download my mod just to search for models they can use in their own damn mods. That's how you describe it. I want them to play my mod for what it is, and hopefully enjoy it. I honestly don't think you'll find a modder who want people to download their mod, only to find assets they can use in their own mods.

2) After that, to get something, you'll need to download all the mod for only a part of it. Unless contacting the creator if he could give you the desired part. (For sure, the goal is not to separate all jobs of a mod either.)

So we, the artists, should spend our time to upload models and screenshots and information, just so the few who cannot make their own art, should have an easier time to get them? How would we do that? Should be upload ALL our art in one download, which takes just slightly less space than a full mod, or should be separate them into what? One and one model? Faction by faction? Do you realize how long that will take?

Think about it: You want our models. "Please can I use your models in my mod? I'll give credits of course!"
It's not us begging you to choose our models. "Can you please use my models in your mod? That would be great, remember to give me credit!"
We spend our time making this art, and we'll make it easily availiable if that is the purpose. But if that is not the case, and the art is for our mods, then we'll leave the art in our mods. Some tings are okay to share, but why should we spend our time to help you out, when you aren't doing anything for us? A line in the credits, how long does that take? Art takes hours.. Downloading a mod takes much less..

As a sidenote, I do have renders of my models for T4A. So most of my stuff is avaliable to see on my site. Renders are prettier

[Mathijs]

I make models with a specific mod in mind, which is then reflected in the models: for example, you can't just take one of the building models I did for The Fourth Age and stick it into your own mod, because those models are designed to be seen together, to be part of a larger whole. Individually, they won't look as good, especially if the rest of your artwork is created in a different vein. That leaves me with two options, should I desire to make my models available for public use: accept that they will look out of place within the context of your mod, or make them all available so you can use them all and nothing will look out of place, which will completely invalidate my initial design goal: to create something for The Fourth Age. It also removes a sense of individuality from The Fourth Age and I have never supported the aesthetically homogenizing of projects on here. The same goes for models I did for Shadow and Flame, The Peloponnesian Wars, and older projects. The specific nature of my design process means I don't want them included in other projects freely because it just won't look good.

However, like Lauri, I have thought about making some things available for free use (provided I get credit). These would mostly include some older reskins of vanilla units or some random unit I did when bored, with no further purpose in mind. I'll see about that.

Edited by Mathijs, 17 October 2012 - 08:01 PM.

[Gourbish]

OK, OK, I misspoke. I didn't want to say "give us all of your works for being able to create a big mod easily". Sorry that you believed that, it was not my intention.
Like I said (I speak for my own use) I'm editing the game for me and my friend, and not to make a great mod because my changes are really minimal in comparison to existing mods. Finally the goal is not to use your stuff for making other public mods, but for making personal changes.

So after your explanations, you're right and I see that a rule would be necessary in that case : uploading a new mod with parts of an existing mod would be forbidden (unless authors are agree). But I think this rule is already existing.
I know that all works need to spend many times as I tasted it for many times (I uploaded my first middling model, and I did 2 others but as I have problems with bounding boxes I didn't want to upload them with a bug).


For example, you download a mod. You install it and you play it because you really like it. But in the next days, a designer made new great models for this mod to enhance it to his mind. So if you like them, you pick up their models and you enhance the original mod.

This is a story which explain what I wanted to say. It's an achievable story for many games but not with BFME. Here the goal is not to stole works of others, but to benefit of the work of many. 'Cause if somebody plays a mod, I think there will be few chances that he would play many others whereas he could play this mod and add it some stuff from somebody else.

[Lauri]

BFME works different from whatever games you have played in the past. You can't just add stuff on top of eachother, you have to combine and entwine stuff.
And you can never enhance a mod that you did not create. You can change things, but it will only be more to your liking, not to that of the creator. You've then defiled his work, in a sense.
Takes the mod SEE. It has a terribly slow build-time for units and buildings. Nazgul, the creator, wanted this as the primary purpose of his mod. Now it has loads of other stuff in it, and it's one of the biggest mods for BFME2. However, there's been plenty of people complaining that the slow build-time ruins the game for them, because they want a faster game. "Everything else is great, but the build-times are shit." If you reduce the build-times, have you then enhanced the mod? No, you've made it more to your liking. Nazgul never wanted to have faster build-times.. The same applies to art.

Do you know why we makes different mods? Because we have different ideas, and different plans. Whatever I make, I don't like the idea of people downloading my mod, just to take my models and put them in, say, Lone Wolf, because they happen to like my models better. If you made a mod, worked hard on it for a couple of years, and finally released it, would you enjoy it if people only downloaded the mod to use your models in their own, or my mod?
And also a big point; If you customize a mod you've downloaded, you can't play against others with it. That is, unless you give it to them, and that's just cheezy.

And if you are creating a tiny mod that you'll never release, I especially don't see any need for me to help you, especially not by sending you models you have picked out. If you are making something for your own personal use, then there are no rules. You just grab what you want. Then it's okay. It's when you release mods to the public you'll have to ask for permission to use other people's art.

As I understand it, you basically want more free public models. Well, we have a few of those, and there'll probably be more. But you've got to respect that we, the artists, don't release all of our models for a reason. They are our models, and we simply want them in our mods. Nertea made awesome looking Southern Fiefdom units of Gondor that I could easily have downloaded and put in my mod. After he had made them, I decided to make my own. And even though I got inspired by his work, mine's still very different from his. That is also a part of the case here. Even though mine doesn't look as good as Nertea's, I still like my own models.

[Mathijs]

What Lauri said is mostly true, but really, if you want to customize anything with models from other mods, then you are welcome to do so, provided you know how to extract + code them in, and keep the mod private. If it's private, there are no objections to be made by anyone here because there is nothing we can do.

However, I also get the idea that you think of BFME kind of like GTA, where you can download car models and player models and easily add them to your customized game. In some ways you can do that for BFME, but not in any way remotely as simple as other games might allow. If that is what you want to do, post about it and we can help you figure out how.

[Gourbish]

When I used the word "enhanced" it was a personal view, and because it was the first word I thank ! :-p
Like you explain well, for somebody SEE is better with fast build time, and not for others. So, exaggerating they <<enhance>> the mod in their opinion, but it's just a problem of word and not so important !^^

But as you said at the begining, "You can't just add stuff on top of eachother, you have to combine and entwine stuff". So it's not possible to "steal" a stuff here, a stuff there, etc. Only adding one model will need to edit the code again and again, unless it would be just a model to substitute.

For sure I respect your choice. Fortunately everybody is free ! But it's not really my way of seeing modding. I'm really surprised to see so little models or even maps to download for such a community which is still alive today despite the age of the games. And compared to the great number of mods existing.

[Lauri]

Think of it this way; We encourage people to try to make their own art. Why? Because it's a joy to watch others improve, and it might be rewarding for the ones that finally can make their own models and skins, even if the quality is terrible at first. You won't find all kind of models 'free' either, so it's usually a good idea to learn to model a bit yourself, or to get a team member who can. That's how we grown, by learning new things.

And one other thing. We've tried to make a 'community mod' twice, and both times it failed. A mod where everyone who wanted could contribute models, and code stuff. Come to think of it, I think that the second attempt may have been what led to TPW..

For models, you're right in that there could be much more models on the main site. There are also many mods that have failed which might've had custom models that could've been given out after the mod was declared dead, like the ones from TDP. But that is up to the modders who made them after all.
But maps? Come on, there's plenty of maps on the main site

[MattTheLegoman]

I keep on hoping a mapper wants to help me on these maps. I can say that only a small percentage of the maps I have edited/made are not available.

But yes, a mod is a collection of special things together, it only works together. My best map, Barad-dur will remain in the SEE, in the vain hope that one day I will be able to the best mod according to me.

[Lauri]

I don't think anyone wants to finish your maps, just as I wouldn't want to finish another guy's art. Touching up after they're "done" is okay, especially when the maps are for a specific mod. But that also applies to well planned maps for specific mods (ie, your help in TPW).
And not to be rude, but it seems that your unfinished maps are without a real plan, and aren't set up to act like skirmish\mp maps. For instance Angrenost Vales, I could just build a trebuchet and destroy the other base from my own
If they're just for making cool looking maps, I don't think you'll find a large target of mappers to help you. Then it's just for improving your ability to make scenery good. But there are other factors to mapping. So if they're just for practice, remember to practice the art of making good skirmish maps aswell. You know, balanced.

And let's not forget that mappers do like to make their own maps

[Gourbish]

Think of it this way; We encourage people to try to make their own art. Why? Because it's a joy to watch others improve, and it might be rewarding for the ones that finally can make their own models and skins, even if the quality is terrible at first. You won't find all kind of models 'free' either, so it's usually a good idea to learn to model a bit yourself, or to get a team member who can. That's how we grown, by learning new things.

And one other thing. We've tried to make a 'community mod' twice, and both times it failed. A mod where everyone who wanted could contribute models, and code stuff. Come to think of it, I think that the second attempt may have been what led to TPW..

For models, you're right in that there could be much more models on the main site. There are also many mods that have failed which might've had custom models that could've been given out after the mod was declared dead, like the ones from TDP. But that is up to the modders who made them after all.
But maps? Come on, there's plenty of maps on the main site

After speaking with you, I understand the difference between here and other communities (for other games) : in fact, here, everyone is working to make its own mod (or a mod with many artists). So nobody think something like that "ok, I'll go focus at making models for dwarves" or "me, I'll go to create new buildings", etc. Finally, those who maybe do that, they do it in a complete mod.

About the maps, it's true that there are some maps, but I think there many more maps somewhere : for example in the3rdage.net, there are 43 maps for BFME2 or ROTWK. It seems important, but in 6 years (the games were sold in 2006) it looks less important. I'm sure that there are many other maps all over the mods. But it's true that maps could be made for only one mod if the AI is build for this specific mod.

[Lauri]

Well, the other BFME sites usually have the most maps, and you'll find tons on them if they still exist. Here at t3a we've always had the focus on modding, and learning and teach modding. Mapping came pretty late.

[Gourbish]

Yes it's true that it is really good for getting help, advices, tips, etc on modding between the articles and the forum !

By the way, thank you Lauri and others for this discussion, I understand more why and how the community works about downloads. I hope all our talks will maybe allow to enlarge the downloads section !

And if more users can come, it would be interesting to get more opinion !

[MattTheLegoman]

Ah, Lauri - can you piece apart the rest of my maps. And I will love you for it. Criticism is something I can take easily. Yes, they are unfinished, which is why I am looking to other mappers. I do have a plan when I start a map, but fresh ideas to make the map stand out and not be a replica of just one natural environment. People work together on mods, I am trying to get more people mapping.

Working on NJM's Thermopylae was incredibly challenging, but extremely rewarding at the same time. It increased my skill a hundred fold.

Edited by MattTheLegoman, 18 October 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

And one other thing. We've tried to make a 'community mod' twice, and both times it failed. A mod where everyone who wanted could contribute models, and code stuff. Come to think of it, I think that the second attempt may have been what led to TPW..

Ah Copro good times.
It did achieve part of it's goal it stimulated activity here if only for a short time.

Most mod leaders here are very protective of their work we've had a few modders in the past steal our work to make their own mods some times lifting entire factions.
We work hard on our mods and have our own visions.
Outside the mod's context and individual canon the art work just doesn't work.
As Lauri said you couldn't combine T4A and LW because we both have very different ideas for what we want it's also the main reason TEA and TDH haven't combined.

As a community we've evolved to more focused on big projects and self learning than other communities that have downloadable models and mini mods like Warcraft 3 for instance.
It's just how we are and how've grown and it's also how there are some very old mods here.