16 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

So, a topic that fits into the GNP: NK vs USA. The rhetoric is harsher this year than it has been in many(even threatening to attack mainland US), and the US and SK doesn't seem to care about it, causing more harsh rhetoric to burst out of the angry NK's.

 

There is speculation that the NK regime needs to show their strength to survive, but that they are terrified of acting in such a way that will cause a big retaliation from the US. I think the US has placed itself in a nice situation here by not budging, since that leaves the NK regime with no wiggle-room to sink a fishing boat or attack a small island with rockets without facing the consequences.

 

I'm really hoping that something happens now, this blight has been allowed to go on for too long. I might have said something different if I lived within artillery range of those NK guns, but I'm pretty sure that a week of bombing would have proven a nice vacation for those within reach.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Propaganda to try and a maintain failing country and a loser leader.

Only North Korea could delude itself enough to think it's a real challenge to the US.

It must be weird to be in either Korea to look over the border to see a completely new world and one day maybe soon the North will get a real sense of how much they've been held back.

The situation in North Korea in the last few months must have been growing increasingly desperate as news of cannibalism brought on by a drought and famine have been flowing out.

Supposedly a lot of food has been taken from the poorer people and given to the loyalists.

I wonder where the point of revolt is for a people so long held under thralldom.

[Hostile]

NK is like a child who grew their first pubic hairs, running around and showing off their new found pee pee. If they want a war, than the sooner the better except for the 200k Chinese troops that would rush into NK to reinforce them. That is why it's a stalemate and we have to starve them out.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

China probably won't back North Korea they seem to be distancing themselves.

Why would they China has considerable amounts of money tied up in the US.

I do worry about South Korea though since it's susceptible to attack.

 

The thing I don't get is supposedly only Guam and Hawaii are in their range yet they seem to think they can dissolve the US by attacking them.

[OmegaBolt]

I doubt they're actually thinking that at all, it's just talking big. They likely just want to be taken seriously and succumb to the US like the rest of the world.

[duke_Qa]

I don't see how they would be able to join the world in any sort of way without a massive amount of camel-swallowing( Norwegian saying for politicians that have to eat their words / accept some relatively important topic that is against their ideology in the name of compromise / cooperation with other parties). The only way that would happen is that the current elite gets wiped off the map, since they are the only ones prospering right now.

 

I suspect the best solution would be to blow up all their military installations and airdrop food and communication devices down to the civilians, allowing them to communicate and coordinate beyond military rule. No ground-invasion should be needed, maybe a few airfields to get supplies in for the civillians.

[OmegaBolt]

Yeah I meant NOT succumb to the US. In reality obviously they would need to put down arms if they want to join in the world party.

[Hostile]

Meh, heh, mah, and WTF.

 

Now that we got that out of the way, there is no way the Chinese would allow a conventional nor strategic exchange to happen against NK. It would go nukes. That is why we can't do anything. The Chinese have nukes, and we're worried about NK nukes?

[duke_Qa]

I don't really see how China would throw away their meal-ticket by nuking the West for stopping a small warmongering nation which has lost its mind.

 

The most likely reaction from China would be to send troops into NK to take command after America wipes them off the map, instead of letting Western troops invade and get direct borders with China: Or demand monopoly on the peacekeeping operations once NK surrenders. I suspect that NK would have been a very nice way to make a good buck as well, rebuilding such a nation would be both profitable and prestigious.

 

OmegaBolt: hmm, thats some opinion I guess. I think there are plenty of nations around the world that keeps themselves away from the influence of the US without going totally isolationist.

 

Even if you put on some rose tinted glasses and look at USA as an elite-controlled warmachine that shoots armies at whomever the rich wants them to shoot armies at; it has been the most non-confrontational superpower in the human history of superpowers. Not that it can't change for the worse; we were very close to the pit after 9/11, but it seems to be balancing out again now.

 

 

But I must admit, the biggest shame we in the West have to bear in a hundred years will be how to defend all the things we've done in the name of profit.

 

three words for our age:

- Rationalization: Find your hole in the sand to keep your sanity, don't believe in anything "good", hide your doubts unless you want to be exiled,

- Greed: money, money, money, rat race, guile and theft, beating the system, avoiding taxes, thinking society is something someone else pays for, get rich or die trying, cooperate only when it pays off, the biggest thing in life is you.

- Shadows: Espionage, proxy wars, terrorism, fear of losing what little we've gained, uncertain future in technological / political and economical terms.

 

The space-race was the last noble project that really caught our imaginations. Nowadays people don't think of space because there's no money to be made of it. If we keep this mentality for the next hundred years, we'll run out of products to sell as our planet becomes a materialistic garbage heap empty of life. But I digress

[OmegaBolt]

OmegaBolt: hmm, thats some opinion I guess. I think there are plenty of nations around the world that keeps themselves away from the influence of the US without going totally isolationist.

 

Well I don't think that's why they went isolationist, but it's certainly a reason to talk defensively (or aggressively) if they're so paranoid. Just look at the videos of that captured US warship they're so proud of.

 

Also I very much doubt China would do anything much. Maybe they'd lay claim in the aftermath but they would never even threaten nuclear war if NK was under direct threat.

 

Even if you put on some rose tinted glasses and look at USA as an elite-controlled warmachine that shoots armies at whomever the rich wants them to shoot armies at; it has been the most non-confrontational superpower in the human history of superpowers. Not that it can't change for the worse; we were very close to the pit after 9/11, but it seems to be balancing out again now.

 

Surely it's been one of the most confrontational since WW2.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

There were only 2 Superpowers after WW2 and neither of them could make a direct move on each other.

They fought a sort of proxy war by using other countries around the world.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a civil war during the civil war as the poor of North Korea rebel against the elites.

That point would have to be coming some time in the future if there's no intervention the poor won't stay hungry forever.

The safest bet as far as I see it would be to continue the sanctions and let North Korea implode unfortunately it will be the poor who'll suffer.

Wouldn't be surprised if flyers started dropping from the sky.

 

In a way the North Korea situation is like the situation after 9/11 the people were scared and vulnerable the government picked a fight to keep morale up, now North Korea are dealing with a famine morale in the country must be at an all time low so now North Korea pick a fight (or at least feign) with it's other half and the big evil US.

Somewhat hypocritical considering Kim Jong Il and Un are big on American culture.

[duke_Qa]

I think you over-estimate the NK civilians competence and communication capabilities. They barely have any education, have to spend every waking hour trying to survive by finding food, and any sort of betrayal against the regime will lead to them being deported to labor-camps. Also, if they have access to radios or walkie-talkies, that goes as betrayal, so those items will be quite secret if someone has them.

 

When Norway was occupied by the Germans during the war, hiding radios was an art that required skill, and we were generally opposed to the occupation. In NK, ratting out your neighbor might get you more food, so less loyalty there.

Edited by duke_Qa, 02 April 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Kwen]

As far as the China issue, we have to keep in mind that China has a economic interest in N.Korea or else they wouldn't even consider them. If N.Korea gets testy then China will surely give them support. China may have economic interest with us as well, but the difference is, they have a firm grip on our nuts since they could cripple our already weak economy. So this may be N.Korea's little school yard scrap, but China is the one who could control the outcome just by the money alone.

 

However, if N.Korea's little game fails to hold any interest for China, they will not support a lost cause. 

 

So as far as I see it, there is a fine line as to which direction it could go. It depends on how China wants to deal with the situation. They can say all they want to the media, but they have ability enough to change the outcome if they so choose. 

 

I still do not believe N.Korea is going to start flinging missiles, because the retaliation from us would be quite extreme. 

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

The US economy isn't so weak that China could gut it if it stopped investing, in fact it's more likely the other way around.

 

Even the most crushed people have a breaking point and it's usually at the point of survival, with a little propaganda from the US or South Korea that could move them closer to the breaking point.

Without the real desire for change nothing would be different even if Kim Jong Un as overthrown another would just step up and they'd be in the same situation.

But in all honesty it'll probably just be a stand off for the next few years until Korea buckles under pressure from the sanctions and the world breathing down their necks.

[duke_Qa]

This one isn't new but it still fits.

 

I'm a bit tired of this dance, I hope they manage to keep the sanctions up, and make it clear to the NK that whatever bull they try to do will get a full response. But I guess thats life.

[Rider of Rohan]

Wtf did i just watch .... 

Edited by Rider of Rohan, 04 April 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[duke_Qa]

The adventures of KIM JONG UN! that's what you saw, you cannot unsee it now.

 

Anyway, things keep on waddling along, missiles have been placed on the east-coast, America moved a missile shield to guam 3 years before it was planned. big radar dishes and a few naval vessels are moving closer.

 

Also I just read that anonymous pentagon sources are surprised with the media coverage of American movements, as they consider it pretty pre-emptive and cautious but it gets blown up in the global media as the beginning of the end. Which I guess can have a tinge of truth to it, I suspect western media would enjoy it if NK collapsed because of their painting of the situation.