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#1 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:04 PM

Moving the shoutbox conversation to this thread.

 


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#2 Irenë Hawnetyne

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:57 PM

Ironically, I've run out of points to make until I can find something to argue about.


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#3 The Best Guest

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:06 PM

I don't think morality is something religious, i don't think anyone semi-intelligent thinks that haha.


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#4 Mathijs

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:23 PM

I've met several people at my university who believed the only source of decency and morality was the bible. An interesting angle, considering the dozens of atrocities commended within its narrative. 


Edited by Mathijs, 23 May 2013 - 07:23 PM.

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#5 The Best Guest

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:28 PM

Anyone who takes the bible solely on fact is confused, obviously if you are a christian you believe that man is naturally a sinner, so no way could a sinner write a perfect book, therefore the logical christian must conclude that it is riddled with errors and meant to be used as a guide and not a law.


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#6 Irenë Hawnetyne

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:45 PM

What 'bout ole King Jesus?


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#7 The Best Guest

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:54 PM

What do you mean?


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#8 Irenë Hawnetyne

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:09 PM

...man is naturally a sinner...

Was Jesus a sinner?


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#9 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:34 PM

He was born, so by default he was by Original sin.

But then he died and somehow absolved everyone of their sins, or we can repent on our death beds and be absolved or there's no absolution it's all so confusing.

That happens when people see what they want to see.

Just like this recent Papal turn saying that Atheists can get into heaven too, but why would we want to?

You go to heaven for the climate, hell for the company


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#10 Mathijs

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:57 PM

+1 for a Mark Twain quote.


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#11 Devon

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 04:17 AM

Rad, I don't think that's really giving Jesus or original sin doctrine the credit it deserves.  It's easy to blast a straw man perception of it.

 

Given that this is the internet I don't think many people will make the claim that atheists can't be moral, too.  I'm a lot more curious about whether people think there's an absolute morality, or if everything's relative, and how we deal with the answer to that with regard to social institutions of justice.


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#12 OmegaBolt

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:14 PM

I'm not sure how the idea of original sin deserves any credit. The idea that all people are born to repent is surely a horrible one, an atrocity we indirectly committed so long ago it can't even be recounted is now resting on our shoulders is just cruel nonsense. WHY would you want to believe it? Are we so lost that we simply NEED punishment to give us a reason to die?

 

I'm not sure why people would even want to believe in God. All I see is people is slicing other's heads off in his name, praising him in blood, believing they are given divine will to doing his (at the right times unknowable) work. This is madness (and this is Sparta). If we are made in God's image then God is one seriously cruel and flawed individual that doesn't deserve our belief. I hate that our divinity can be used to somehow validate our actions. We aren't divine at all, even if there is a God we are his slave class. We could be divine but we need to make it ourselves. If we think for ourselves and use our knowledge and understanding of the universe we could transcend all problems but instead we're waiting for the end of the world and our mysery at the hand of an unknowable superbeing that apprently has plans for us, apparently loves us but sends the majority to everlasting torment, strikes us down before our time, wants worshipping like some narcissistic petulant kid and is the absolute ultimate hypocrite, to end. Even if there IS a God we shouldn't workship him at all but do our utmost to use our science to destroy him, quickly. Build more towers of Babel and lots of them.

 

Moreover is our lack of understanding. People bask is in his infinite wisdom and ALSO the fact that we simply can't understand his whole self because he's so incredibly intelligent. How can we really do both? How can the few claim to know his will and yet most of us are blind to him and must follow them instead? It's a trap. Why is there no single definition for God anyway? Because we've got nothing on him. It was just a silly idea someone once had that went way out of proportion and now we're trying to break down and figure out the worst joke ever told, but there are no sides to look at. It was never meant to be figured out. You can't debate God because there are no set boundaries normally applied to debatable subjects. The target can shift as much as it likes to defend itself and still be called God.


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#13 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:26 PM

Somewhat off of the morality point but I don't get how people can trust the New testament.

 

Christianity didn't really start till around 50 years after his death in a time where education wasn't the norm by a series eye witness accounts.

We don't accept Eye witness accounts in court because they are unreliable should we take for gospel the accounts of people who were less educated.

There were many false messiahs around at that time only JC really took off but there were a few that had the same miracles attributed to them.

If someone had told you today that they had just seen someone walking on water or healing a leper just from touch you wouldn't believe them, nor would you believe them if they had said they talked to someone who saw it so why believe heresay from thousands of years ago.

Quite possibly the longest game of Chinese whispers ever played.

 

Jesus was from both Bethlehem and Nazareth despite Nazareth not even really existing at the time and it's actual landscape nothing like the bible's description.

 

Back on the topic of morality.

Original Sin is probably the most disgusting element of Christianity that fact that you are already sinful and dirty from the moment you are born for someone else's supposed transgressions.

We really should be more careful about the fruit we eat unless we want to condemn the world for all time, maybe I'll just have a cookie next time.


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#14 Mathijs

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

Rad, I don't think that's really giving Jesus or original sin doctrine the credit it deserves.  It's easy to blast a straw man perception of it.

 

Given that this is the internet I don't think many people will make the claim that atheists can't be moral, too.  I'm a lot more curious about whether people think there's an absolute morality, or if everything's relative, and how we deal with the answer to that with regard to social institutions of justice.

 

Morality is a relative social construct. The only thing that comes close to providing some framework of 'absolute morality' are survival instincts. As a physically frail, socially-oriented organism, humans need the company of others in order to survive. That means going around killing people for no 'valid reason' (reasons which are relative and vary greatly between cultures) is largely frowned upon.

 

I do feel, however, that in recent decennia the celebrated notion of cultural and moral relativism (as a departure from the colonial superiority complex) has grown to be unpleasant. Going from my own moral compass, every person, man and woman, are to be considered equal and be provided with the freedom to follow their own path, and too often have I seen the rampant violation of women's rights in certain cultural spheres excused with the doctrine of relativism, you know, 'that is just their way of living'. Note that these violations are largely perpetuated by several religions that are convinced of their own moral highground. 

 

There is no absolute morality, but the only moral doctrine I would consider absolutely moral is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Note that this document has been strongly criticized by Islamic countries who prefer to not be bothered in their institutionalized dehumanization of women. 


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#15 Devon

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:16 PM

I'm not sure how the idea of original sin deserves any credit. The idea that all people are born to repent is surely a horrible one, an atrocity we indirectly committed so long ago it can't even be recounted is now resting on our shoulders is just cruel nonsense. WHY would you want to believe it? Are we so lost that we simply NEED punishment to give us a reason to die?

 
I meant logical credit.  Some of the credits thinkers of the millennium came up with what is not church doctrine, and it's certainly more self-consistent than Rad gives it credit for.

 
 

I'm not sure why people would even want to believe in God. All I see is people is slicing other's heads off in his name, praising him in blood, believing they are given divine will to doing his (at the right times unknowable) work. This is madness (and this is Sparta). If we are made in God's image then God is one seriously cruel and flawed individual that doesn't deserve our belief. I hate that our divinity can be used to somehow validate our actions. We aren't divine at all, even if there is a God we are his slave class. We could be divine but we need to make it ourselves. If we think for ourselves and use our knowledge and understanding of the universe we could transcend all problems but instead we're waiting for the end of the world and our mysery at the hand of an unknowable superbeing that apprently has plans for us, apparently loves us but sends the majority to everlasting torment, strikes us down before our time, wants worshipping like some narcissistic petulant kid and is the absolute ultimate hypocrite, to end. Even if there IS a God we shouldn't workship him at all but do our utmost to use our science to destroy him, quickly. Build more towers of Babel and lots of them.

 
Yeah, it's a great mystery why people want to believe there's some purpose to their lives..
 
As for the kinds of religious people you always see, for every one of those, there are a hundred humble quiet types who just give money to charities and try to do good things.  I have my own problems with religion, but also my fair share of religious friends, and that's pretty gross hyperbole.


 

Moreover is our lack of understanding. People bask is in his infinite wisdom and ALSO the fact that we simply can't understand his whole self because he's so incredibly intelligent. How can we really do both? How can the few claim to know his will and yet most of us are blind to him and must follow them instead? It's a trap. Why is there no single definition for God anyway? Because we've got nothing on him. It was just a silly idea someone once had that went way out of proportion and now we're trying to break down and figure out the worst joke ever told, but there are no sides to look at. It was never meant to be figured out. You can't debate God because there are no set boundaries normally applied to debatable subjects. The target can shift as much as it likes to defend itself and still be called God.

 
Well you're sure giving it an effort :p
 


Somewhat off of the morality point but I don't get how people can trust the New testament.

Christianity didn't really start till around 50 years after his death in a time where education wasn't the norm by a series eye witness accounts.
We don't accept Eye witness accounts in court because they are unreliable should we take for gospel the accounts of people who were less educated.
There were many false messiahs around at that time only JC really took off but there were a few that had the same miracles attributed to them.
If someone had told you today that they had just seen someone walking on water or healing a leper just from touch you wouldn't believe them, nor would you believe them if they had said they talked to someone who saw it so why believe heresay from thousands of years ago.
Quite possibly the longest game of Chinese whispers ever played.

Jesus was from both Bethlehem and Nazareth despite Nazareth not even really existing at the time and it's actual landscape nothing like the bible's description.

Back on the topic of morality.
Original Sin is probably the most disgusting element of Christianity that fact that you are already sinful and dirty from the moment you are born for someone else's supposed transgressions.
We really should be more careful about the fruit we eat unless we want to condemn the world for all time, maybe I'll just have a cookie next time.



Eye witness accounts are among the most trusted forms of evidence in America, actually.

But yes, Yeshua was a very different person from what the gospels tell us of Jesus. On some level, it doesn't matter.

As for the fruit comment, it's not like it they were condemned for randomly eating a fruit. It was explicitly forbidden.
 

 

Rad, I don't think that's really giving Jesus or original sin doctrine the credit it deserves. It's easy to blast a straw man perception of it.

Given that this is the internet I don't think many people will make the claim that atheists can't be moral, too. I'm a lot more curious about whether people think there's an absolute morality, or if everything's relative, and how we deal with the answer to that with regard to social institutions of justice.


Morality is a relative social construct. The only thing that comes close to providing some framework of 'absolute morality' are survival instincts. As a physically frail, socially-oriented organism, humans need the company of others in order to survive. That means going around killing people for no 'valid reason' (reasons which are relative and vary greatly between cultures) is largely frowned upon.

I do feel, however, that in recent decennia the celebrated notion of cultural and moral relativism (as a departure from the colonial superiority complex) has grown to be unpleasant. Going from my own moral compass, every person, man and woman, are to be considered equal and be provided with the freedom to follow their own path, and too often have I seen the rampant violation of women's rights in certain cultural spheres excused with the doctrine of relativism, you know, 'that is just their way of living'. Note that these violations are largely perpetuated by several religions that are convinced of their own moral highground.

There is no absolute morality, but the only moral doctrine I would consider absolutely moral is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Note that this document has been strongly criticized by Islamic countries who prefer to not be bothered in their institutionalized dehumanization of women.


Yeah, I had Hannah Arendt in mind when I asked that. She makes the point that we like to believe we're very sophisticated intellectuals who respect other cultures as much as our own and don't assume superiority, but the Nuremberg trials and Eichmann's trial in Jerusalem prove that that isn't really the case when you get down to it. There are certain things we believe are absolutely immoral, regardless if other cultures find them acceptable.

Makes it hard to make laws, though.


Edited by Devon, 25 May 2013 - 09:25 PM.

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#16 OmegaBolt

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:29 PM

Because it's so bullshizzle I don't see how anyone ever fell for it. It's just a flabby unnecessary extension of morality that is bored into kids brains by their also religious parents.

 

I can understand why people need a reason to exist, of course you need a reason of some kind otherwise why the hell do anything? God is not the answer, bettering ourselves is the answer. I think also when you say there are quiet religious folk they're not really subscribing to the same religion as was created all them years ago. Most religious people have abandoned the silly ideas and laws because they know they're silly, and in most cases offensive to anyone with a decent moral compass. These people might call themselves Christians, for example, but it's much looser than that.


Edited by OmegaBolt, 25 May 2013 - 09:30 PM.

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#17 Pasidon

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:49 AM

You people still discussing this garbage?  None of you have a gosh darn clue about anything, since divine evidence is nether plentiful nor lacking in either direction to even make a sentence long debate.  It's like debating what I'm drinking right now, which is obviously milk, but without conformation of that, you can't assume the milk exists.  Nor can you claim the milk doesn't exist.  

 

Like most debates around here, it was easily solved with milk.


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#18 Irenë Hawnetyne

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 11:02 AM

The debate is not to find a resolution, Pas, you miss the point. The debate is to explore and poke holes in others' ideas, and see why they defend them. Well, partly, it's more complex than that, but you get the atheists' perspective.


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#19 Pasidon

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 11:31 AM

Yea, everyone gets the atheists perspective:  Religion dumb.  And no one gets religious people's perspectives, cuz they rarely keep the same agendas.  Ya'll a bunch of slag sacks... stop giving a hoot about the universe.  If ya' die and happen to appear in toga town.. or nothing happens... well either way, that sucks.  If you were a bad boy and imps claim your soul because you failed to acknowledge Pygmies had the one true religion... also, sucks ducks.  But we are sure of one thing: there is milk.  Enjoy.  ... Happy memorial day.


Edited by {IP}Pasidon, 26 May 2013 - 11:53 AM.

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#20 Irenë Hawnetyne

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 01:03 PM

Yea, everyone gets the atheists perspective:  Religion dumb.  And no one gets religious people's perspectives, cuz they rarely keep the same agendas. 

No, not really. I'm an atheist, I contest religions, but my perspective is not that religion is dumb. And few religions change their agendas, and these few are the major ones, whose changes are radical and widely covered because they affect such large audiences. 


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