16 replies to this topic

[johnchm.10]

So, as one of my many musings, I had a thought about why the Imperial-class was as vaunted as it was by the Imperial Navy. obviously her weapons-loadout, size, and physical dimensions are sufficient enough to deal with most of the enemies that the Galactic Empire, pre-4 ABY would deal with.

but despite her size, cost, and crew-requirements, she is still seen as the de-facto Gold Standard, to which all other Warships are compared.

To sum it up, i believe that having 2 Imperial-1 class Star Destroyers is the rough equivalent of having at least 3 smaller vessels, an Acclamator-1, Venator (1), and Victory (1 or 2.), in most respects.

Armaments: an Imperial-1 has about as much fire-power as a Victory and an Acclamator. 135 weapon emplacements of various types, compared to the 50 emplacements on the Victory-2 (used because the Missile Launchers have limited utility in terms of how long they can be used or to what purposes. you can either use them up quickly in massive salvos, or use them only a few launchers at a time, which seems rather inefficient for such a large and otherwise powerful platform) and the more defensively oriented 36 emplacements on a Acclamator, and/or the 62 emplacements on a Venator. again i dont include the torpedo launchers because of their reload issues, although i would be willing to include the Acclamator's torpedoes because she carries a hundred per launcher.

[johnchm.10]

crap. apparently my keyboard messed up again. the post above was not complete

[Ghostrider]

The real key to the Imperial -class is its weapon placement

For a start it has much more firepower than acclamators and Victory class SD's.

Acclamator I's have quad light turbolasers, punchy at short range but as they are on the flanks, they can't all be brought to bear on the same target. It's a short range brawler.

 

The Imperial has a good mix of short range light turbolasers and turboions, all of which can be brought to bear on a target to the front, but the real strength is the main armament: 2 double heavy turboions and 6 double heavy turbolasers and the triple heavy turbolasers have long range, that can do a lot of damage before the shorter range guns of the VSD or Acclamator can be brought to bear.  

 

Add to this the sheer size of the Imperial compared to the other 2 craft, and it takes a lot to kill.

 

In a theoretical model of the combat mechanic I estimate an Accalamator 1 at 17%; Acclamator II; 23% VSD 50%; Imperial 1: 100%

 

An Imperial-I-class should be able to take on a pair of Victories (I's or II's) or 6 Acclamators.

 

The other real difference is the population counts alluded to earlier. A Single Imperial-class has a lower population requirement (in terms of crew and support) than 2 Acclamators.

The real winner in the population game is the Victory - it has 33% of the population requirement of the Imperial for 50% firepower. However, it is a lot less effective in siege roles and a lone Victory is vulnerable to heavy cruisers, where a lone Imperial is more self-supporting, especially given the complement.

 

If you are feeling poor, build lots of Victories instead - its better value for money, but more vulnerable.

[evilbobthebob]

I'd say the most important difference between the Imperial and Victory classes (aside from armament and armour) are their hanger sizes. The Imperial has an entire wing, while the Victory makes do with a few squadrons and shuttles.

Edited by evilbobthebob, 20 October 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[P.O._210877]

In the GFFA, the realities of space combat under the Empire make the Imperial-I the best choice,by far. The Clone Wars are over, the CIS is disarmed, the Empire is triumphant and any left overs from the CW are swept away by the heavy (for the time) warships of the final days of the Republic; Rendili's Victory-I and Kuat's Venator. After the last significant holdouts have been dealt with the only big ships that are left are all part of the Imperial Navy (since it absorbed the Planetary Defense Forces in the CW) So what are the needs of this New Order? Putting down insurgencies, clearing the space lanes of piracy and conquest of already demilitarized systems. Enters the Victory-II, which is well suited for these jobs. But the Empire wants to show it's power in no uncertain terms and Rendili Star Drive is less favored than Kuat Drive Yards.by the Navy. So the ISD-I supplants the Victory-II (which is bought by KDY) and becomes the ideal peace-time battleship. And the Navy's estimates for the ISD puts it at a squadron level in terms of military potential, the Admiralty seeing this thinks that the bureaucrats will prefer squadrons of less expensive ships (rightly so) and classifies the ISD as a Line resource thinking that this way they'd get more ISDs. They got what they wanted. So the most Victory-Is get sold to the CSA and the Victory-IIs are relegated to Sector patrols and poorer areas. So with no opposition larger than frigates and the occasional cruisers, the Empire fields it's fleets with ISDs and start developing terror ships, the price of which would make any military analist gouge out his/her/it's eyes. So if any serious problem arises the Imperials respond with a ship that has as much firepower than an entire squadron with shields and armor almost impervious to the lesser ships it confronts and can deploy a full wing of starfighters and a standard planetary occupational force.

 

Why, oh why, would they go with another design?

[johnchm.10]

lol. i havent yet completed what i was saying. I was referring to the In Universe usage. i take my dog out for walks up to 1 hour in length so i get an awful long time to think. and my computer keeps messing up.

i mean to go into ground compliments, the air-wing, as well as command and control facilities.

as i said, the laptop keeps failing. keyboard is going, had to drop in new ram, and my wireless card died, so had to replace that too.

 

ill sum it up here. 

the craft the ISD carries in addition to its fighters (the shuttles, transports, blastboats, etc)  actually bring the overall firepower of the Air Wing up to figure about 2, maybe 2.5-3 wings of TIEs. and the TIE's themselves are arguably better than their predecessors in many respects, minus the TIE/Sa Bomber-ARC-170 comparison. The basic TIE is on par with the Nimbus overall, but is faster and likely more maneuverable. The TIE/IN, my personal favorite TIE, may be a bit slower than the Eta-2, but carries heavier armaments, has the capability to have a light warhead load, is likely to have greater maneuverability, (incidentally, if someone can tell me why they 'downgraded' the armaments to 2 of the Original Lasers and replaced the 4 wing guns with Blasters, that would be great)

and can be upgraded with shields and or hyperdrives. the ARC-170 i like better than the TIE Bomber, but the ARC-170 isn't a good BOMBER. it doesnt have as many heavy weapons on it, and the Bomber can mount different ordnance, or even possibly swap out the bombing hull for another module like the Shuttle or Boarding Module.

 

Ground Compliment: the Vehicles used by the Imperial Army and Marines are larger than those of their GAR predecessors, and i don't recall if the Acclamator had a Pre-fab Garrison aboard.

 

C/C facilities: Thrawn was able to control his Armada from the Chimera, for all intents and purposes, an Unmodified ISD2. since no mention was made of any changes to said C/C facilities, i can infer that the ISD1 has similar or identical capabilities.

[Ghostrider]

The Acclamator is a fast troop/assault ship. It carries 16,000 Clone troopers and a number of heavier vehicles, and is designed primarily as a heavy troop ship with significant close quarters combat capability. It does not carry pre-fabricated bases but does have the ability for planetary landing

 

The Imperial-I-class on the other hand fulfulls a number of roles, including subjugation and carries a legion of Stormtroopers as well as a prefabricated base in case a lasting presence on the ground is required.

 

As to controlling an armada, all ISD's have the capability. It's called a comm system.

Thrawn just had an excact replica of the Chimaera's bridge controls duplicated in his personal suite so he could watch what the bridge crew were doing and take an active role in battles, but put Thrawn on the bridge of any ISD and he could run a battle with ease. He just did it better from his personallised set of repeater displays where everything was on hand.

[Zeta1127]

I think my Republic and Imperial Capital Ship Development paper is relevant to this discussion, I have tweaked it since the list time I posted it around here.

 

 

Republic and Imperial Capital Ship Development

Republic and later Imperial capital ship development was the evolution of multi-role warships and to a lesser extent more specialized counterparts. This development started with the Acclamator I-class assault ship and the need for a well-armed transport for the GAR. The war pressed the Acclamator I more and more into a space warfare role, which led to the development of the Acclamator II-class star frigate in order to supplement the Acclamator I.

The CIS possessed many large warships, like the Lurcrehulk-class variants, and later the Recusant-class light destroyer and Providence-class carrier/destroyer, which led to the development of the Victory I-class Star Destroyer and later the Victory II, a multi-role destroyer, and the Venator-class Star Destroyer, an escort carrier. However, the threat of such warships as the Lucrehulk-class variants and Subjugator-class heavy cruiser still loomed, and even though the Republic possessed Kuati battlecruisers and dreadnoughts since the beginning of the war, they weren't very common. This led to the development of the Imperator-class Star Destroyer (later known as the Imperial-class), a heavy multi-role destroyer, the Tector-class Star Destroyer, a fleet combat destroyer, and the Secutor-class Star Destroyer, a fleet carrier, with the three classes only seeing limited service as task force command ships before the Republic was reformed into the Empire.

The period that followed was the perfect environment for multi-role destroyers, which led to the rise of the newly-rechristened Imperial I-class Star Destroyer as the preeminent warship of the Empire. Of course, the Empire always sought to maintain its military supremacy, even when it appeared no other power could challenge them. This led to the continued use of Clone Wars era destroyers, battlecruisers, and dreadnoughts updated with modern technology, and many new designs, like the Allegiance-class Star Battlecruiser (colloquially known as the Imperial Star Battlecruiser, due to its similar appearance to the Imperial-class Star Destroyer), a battlecruiser escort and communications ship, the Executor-class Star Dreadnought, a fleet command ship, and the Eclipse-class Star Dreadnought, a flagship for the Emperor. The Alliance showed that there were challengers to the Imperial naval supremacy, which led to the rapid adoption of enhanced designs, like the Imperial II-class Star Destroyer, and the development of new designs to better fill specific roles, like the Dominator-class Star Destroyer, a fleet interdictor, built on the same space frame as the Imperial and Tector-classes, to supplement the Immobilizer 418 cruiser, and the Procursator-class Star Destroyer, a destroyer escort to supplement the Victory-class and a smaller counterpart to the Tector-class.

A combination of the ever increasing threat posed by the Alliance and the Empire's insatiable desire to maintain naval supremacy, led to the further development of numerous new designs. The new destroyers included the Sorannan-class Star Destroyer, a unique test bed destroyer with only one known example, the EX-F, later known as the Rakehell. The new battlecruisers included the Bellator-class Star Battlecruiser, an intermediate design between battlecruisers and dreadnoughts. The new dreadnoughts included the Vengeance-class Star Dreadnought, a stealth counterpart to the Executor-class, the Sovereign-class Star Dreadnought, a general deployment equivalent to the Eclipse-class, and the Assertor-class Star Dreadnought, the final evolution of the lineage of the Executor and Eclipse-classes. With most of these new warships only seeing limited deployment, while the others remained largely unseen until after the Battle of Endor.

Edited by Zeta1127, 28 October 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Kitkun]

The Imperial-I is, frankly, a ship that's relatively mediocre in all it's roles, as it should be. The difference, however, is that it can fulfill a huge number of roles. It fulfills part of the capabilities of the Victory, Venator, and Acclamator-I all in one ship.

It's the Imperial-II with the significant durability upgrade and the transfer of firepower from the short-range secondary battery to the long-range main battery that the ship really comes into it's own. The later upgrades PR labels ISD-III and IV expand on the roles it can fulfill even more and turn it into a truly fearsome ship that can easily compete even with the newest ships of the line. Smaller hostile forces can be subdued entirely by a single ISD-IV even without detailed intelligence because it's basically a miniature fleet itself; There's nothing the enemy can throw at it that it can't deal with.

Edited by Kitkun, 27 October 2013 - 01:56 AM.

[johnchm.10]

i've had engagements where i've fielded nothing more than an ISD 2-4 with 2 or 4 Lancers on escort. its almost unfair.

I really wish we could have the option to build them as the Alliance/New Republic. even if its only the ISD 1 and 2 that we could build

 

what would that require, out of curiosity?

Edited by johnchm.10, 28 October 2013 - 03:39 AM.

[Ghostrider]

The New Republic only had captured ISD's. It never built them.

You would need to mess around with the tech trees, and it's a bit of a fiddle.

 

Have you tried building Republic-class SD's and CC-9600's?

That should really even up the fight.

[johnchm.10]

grand. i thought they built Dom-3's during the Vong war, and the Gal.Fed. built ISD4's by the Second GCW

 

on a related note, what program was used by you guys to read the DAT files?

Edited by johnchm.10, 30 October 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[Ghostrider]

We havn't got that far yet.

 

Current campaigns run from the GFFA box set at the beginning of the Dark Times (17BBY)  to Dark Empires at 10 ABY.

[johnchm.10]

ah. i was under the impression that GFFA would take place from 20BBY to 19ABY (Order 66 to the Pellaeon-Gavisrom Treaty)

[Ghostrider]

GFFA starts 18 BBY, and the latest campaign is Dark Empires at 10 ABY, but yes, the Tech tree has been extrapolated beyond that point. 

 

If you are still playing GFFA by 10 ABY game time I would be most surprised. 

 

By Dark Empires, most of the research has been completed, except for the K-Wing and Sacheen classes, but most tech trees still have plenty of upgrades left, such as ISD III and ISD IV, Dominator III and so on. However, we can't really claim beyond 10 ABY as we don't have models for the more interesting units that appear late in the canon, such as the MC90 Defiance class, the rest of the New Class stuff, and a good many advanced smaller warships on both sides. 

[johnchm.10]

good point.

 

i know that there exist some models for the New Class Program as well as Defiance and some other ships, but i also know that they are in possession of the TR guys as well as maybe a few made by Warb Null i think. obviously the TR ones are out of the question at this point, but seeing as how you use a different method to get hardpoints et.al., it seems like it would almost be as much work refitting the models as just making them from scratch, and thats before the whole 'nothing from Cracken's Threat Dossier matches up' issue, from which the TR guys evidently based their models.

 

and while im thinking about it, why did you use the model that you did for the Hajen and Sacheen? and where was it from? i can't seem to find it anywhere. it seems like its an evolution of the Nebulon series, in terms of role and capabilities.

 

and what program do you use to view and edit the .DAT files?

[a.fake.name]

I'd say the most important difference between the Imperial and Victory classes (aside from armament and armour) are their hanger sizes. The Imperial has an entire wing, while the Victory makes do with a few squadrons and shuttles.

 

The hanger is less of an issue due to it's launching the full wing so slowly, and in an inconsistent order.

edit:

Oh and Ghostrider, I've seen good MC90 models in other mods for the game, prehaps find and ask another mod team to use some of their stuff for missing units.

 

Edited by a.fake.name, 28 December 2013 - 10:35 AM.