31 replies to this topic

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

So... right, this has nothing to do with my personal situation, better just say that first. OK, I'm part of a pro-feminist debate team and I wanted to know if you have any good points we could use. We've got a few, but the more the better. But if you do want to help, it'd be nice if you didn't put any of your usual sarcastic crap *looks at Pas*

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

I can only post negatives.

But if you were to go positive for Feminism the trick is to avoid modern feminism entirely and focus more on the Women's Right movement/Suffragettes.

[Mathijs]

Too broad a term. First wave feminism? Second wave? Third wave? Feminism as literature criticism? Feminism in the West? In the Middle-East? Egalitarian feminism?

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

The question is as follows: is feminism outdated?
I've already got loads, but there's still a few gaps I've probably not considered.

[Mathijs]

Well, what are your main arguments currently?

[Hostile]

Is femism outdated? Interesting question. While females do make less money than men (except in retail oddly) on the job, for anyone who has lived with a woman or who is married does understand the yes dear/no dear syndrome that men develope when co-running a household. Sometimes it's best for a man to choose the battle as opposed to trying to win every battle. I'd rather be happy than correct from my prospective.

[duke_Qa]

Saying you are for feminism is like saying:

 

"I believe in religion."

 

"Oh! um, kay? which one? "

 

"You don't believe in religion do you? you bastard!"

 

Give us specific parts of feminism and not the entire package for the last two centuries and we might give good feedback

Edited by duke_Qa, 07 November 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[Mathijs]

Agreed. Obviously certain key historic aspects of feminism are outdated, seeing as they've served their purpose (in the West). 

[MattTheLegoman]

Current feminists should focus in the east. Oh dear, we aren't helping are we. And the only other alternative I can think of is the use of sex to sell stuff, which is horrible to females, but the "modern feminists" seem to be fine with that. Unfortunately you have a bad argument side I believe.

[Mathijs]

He really doesn't. He just needs to highlight the critical areas.

[Pasidon]

I'm not really sarcastic... I'm just super negative and partially nuts.  But to keep with that theme, do I care about Feminism?  Isn't that like women being a master race, or something?  Because if it's women's rights, then they're about 20 years behind on that achievement.  In my motherland, anyway.  If they want to play football, or model for tuxedos, they probably already do, but no one really cares because they have no upper body strength and tuxedos are for free masons, or something. But if this is a power fantasy, then I don't really care.  That's like Babe in 'Pig in the City' arguing that his hooves are hands and that he really did hug Jane at the end of the movie.  But you got Mathy here, and he goes beast mode for feminism for some reason, so he'll just give you all the points you need to know. And I have read mostly nothing in this topic.    

 

So... right, this has nothing to do with my personal situation, better just say that first. OK, I'm part of a pro-feminist debate team 

 

Wait, what?  Isn't that like a super contradiction laser beam?

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Current feminists should focus in the east. Oh dear, we aren't helping are we. And the only other alternative I can think of is the use of sex to sell stuff, which is horrible to females, but the "modern feminists" seem to be fine with that.

 

The Tumblr feminists think sex appeal is the worst thing to ever happen to women.

 

I don't know how I'd argue the point that it isn't outdated at least in the west.

 

Women in the west generally get the same pay as men.

Women can vote, drive and have the same self determination as men.

Women have the best chance of getting custody in custody disputes.

 

What is there left to fight for in Women's rights?

 

In countries like Saudi Arabia is a good example of where Women's rights are relevant and slowly growing.

Maybe focus on the changes happening slowly in the Middle-East and countries like India where you hear a lot of stories of cruelty to women.

 

Reframe the issue as Women's Rights, avoid using the term Feminism because Pasidon is right, it's often used as a vehicle for mysandry and pushing for Female supremacy.

[Pasidon]

Phh.  All of Asia doesn't need feminists... they need an army of psychologists, well placed assassinations, and reality checks. 

[Mathijs]

One way to approach a debate like this would be to first define what feminism actually is (because for some reason there's a lot of misinformation today): 

 

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women."

 

Now that you have a viable definition, you can just go over the facts (as they are pretty well documented).

 

Do women have equal political rights? In the West, but also in the (Middle-)East? 

In the West, mostly, yes. In the East, absolutely not. <--- Feminism is relevant.

Do women have equal economic rights?

In the West, women still receive lower pay for the same work. In the (Middle-)East, hell naw. <--- Feminism is relevant.

Do women have equal social rights? 

In the West, there's still a lot of sexism that confines women to traditional roles, but this is definitely much improved and fading away. In the (Middle-)East, obviously not.

 

I haven't bothered to look up sources, but that shouldn't take you long. I think you should argue that a couple of ideologies/goals that fall under the umbrella term that is feminism have grown largely irrelevant, but that across the world the movement is still needed, as facts point out clearly that women do not have the same rights as men.

[Pasidon]

If my dumb country doesn't need Feminists, why does it have them?  I know several, and all of them fight for their own infrastructure.  Usually their argument is "Men are pigs and women are better."  My old college's feminist group fought to decorate women's bathrooms to make it mandatory for the state to to put recliners in them...............................................................  and that was a group over 1000 "strong", statewide that is.  You might be in a single rational head in a completely irrational cause, Mathy.  Yell at feminists and tell them to stop being mostly useless. 

[Mathijs]

The silly standpoints of a few 'womyn's superiority groups' does not invalidate a movement that helped (and is still helping) women to get rid of a second-class citizen status. 

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

... right. I was going for egalitarian feminism. So... you've actually given me a lot to work with there, in the arguments alone.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

In the West, women still receive lower pay for the same work.

 

Most countries in the west have laws against that.

A lot of the studies that say women get paid less are all averaged and don't take into account the many variables at play.

For instance in my state Queensland  some of the higher paying work is in the mines and on the rigs which generally attract more men than women and since that field as a rule pays more than industries where women are more commonly employed such as tourism, hospitality and retail which are generally on the entry level scale of things and barely pay above minimum wage.

[Pasidon]

Yea, it's also kind of illegal in America Land as well. 

[Beowulf]

Modern feminism is a joke. In this day and age, feminism is unnecessary since women have a fuckton of rights already. They're not oppressed and they can do anything men can. What we really need is just egalitarianism so everyone is equal regardless of stupid, bullshit factors like sex, religion, sexuality, etc.