17 replies to this topic

[johnchm.10]

so i was in the middle of a conversation and a thought hit me. technically, the Old Republic would be guilty of war crimes during the Clone Wars because technically, the Clones weren't more than 10 years old, chronologically speaking, at the beginning of the war.

[a.fake.name]

Considering it was under the direction of the Dark Lord of the Sith that the clone army was created, how is that a surprise ?

[Aizen Teppa]

LOL.War crimes? I was thinking about clones lately. Clone army of a Republic strikes me as utter nonsense which shouldn't ever be possible. I know that it's fiction, but it's also impossible to debate scientific facts related to cloning. [Yeah, yeah he was Mandalorian blah, blah]

 

You can't create vast army of clones from only one genetic template (even if you take whole body as a pool of genetic material - killing the donor in the process). To accommodate such endeavor Jango Fett's chromosomes had to be as big as Sol system (at least)   to create hundreds thousands/millions of cloned beings. Every new cloned being is degenerated genetically, every cloned being should be (or rather must be) shorter than previous clone. But all we see are ideal copies which is simply not possible - ever.

 

Cannon fodder - It looks good on the screen, fun reading too, but premise of clone army of Republic and later Empire and other is just absurd when dealing with facts. After ignoring that, then yes war crimes charges are logical. 

[johnchm.10]

yeah, i was going the "technically the GAR is made up almost entirely of child soldiers" route, not the clone part.

that's a completely different can of worms, what with legal issues, vulnerability to biological agents, which i think they did in the TCW series, and i think some point in one of the Legacy books, psychological template vulnerability (BF2 FTW), just to name a few

[megabalta]

When I first heard Bobywan saying the term clone wars in my youth, I always thought it was the jedi who were clones. Like linages of clones, always reborn after dying. Since jedi best resembled to musketeers for me (at least that time), I thought they were just really good soldiers with swords. Oh, and I think in starwars everything is possible, thats why people dig it. 

[onlylogic]

LOL.War crimes? I was thinking about clones lately. Clone army of a Republic strikes me as utter nonsense which shouldn't ever be possible. I know that it's fiction, but it's also impossible to debate scientific facts related to cloning. [Yeah, yeah he was Mandalorian blah, blah]

 

You can't create vast army of clones from only one genetic template (even if you take whole body as a pool of genetic material - killing the donor in the process). To accommodate such endeavor Jango Fett's chromosomes had to be as big as Sol system (at least)   to create hundreds thousands/millions of cloned beings. Every new cloned being is degenerated genetically, every cloned being should be (or rather must be) shorter than previous clone. But all we see are ideal copies which is simply not possible - ever.

 

Cannon fodder - It looks good on the screen, fun reading too, but premise of clone army of Republic and later Empire and other is just absurd when dealing with facts. After ignoring that, then yes war crimes charges are logical. 

 

Aizen, you have no idea what you're talking about. We've already created fully synthesized viruses such as the polio virus. This means that we created the virus from scratch while only looking at the genome sequence as reference. This also means it should be entirely possible to do the same with humans, albeit far more complicated. Thus, no need to worry about degradation of the original template's genetic material, nor any need to worry about having enough of such material. I would expect this is the way they would have done it on Kamino. I don't believe they go into any painstaking detail on how the clones were precisely made in any of the novels though I might be mistaken. (I haven't read all of them) Most of it's simply plot devices that are obviously just there to create some sort of dramatic tension. Such as Boba's issues with having been a clone in the Legacy of the Force series.

[a.fake.name]

Makes more sense that the cloners digitized the genome data, and were able to reproduce it at will.

[Aizen Teppa]

 

LOL.War crimes? I was thinking about clones lately. Clone army of a Republic strikes me as utter nonsense which shouldn't ever be possible. I know that it's fiction, but it's also impossible to debate scientific facts related to cloning. [Yeah, yeah he was Mandalorian blah, blah]

 

You can't create vast army of clones from only one genetic template (even if you take whole body as a pool of genetic material - killing the donor in the process). To accommodate such endeavor Jango Fett's chromosomes had to be as big as Sol system (at least)   to create hundreds thousands/millions of cloned beings. Every new cloned being is degenerated genetically, every cloned being should be (or rather must be) shorter than previous clone. But all we see are ideal copies which is simply not possible - ever.

 

Cannon fodder - It looks good on the screen, fun reading too, but premise of clone army of Republic and later Empire and other is just absurd when dealing with facts. After ignoring that, then yes war crimes charges are logical. 

 

Aizen, you have no idea what you're talking about. We've already created fully synthesized viruses such as the polio virus. This means that we created the virus from scratch while only looking at the genome sequence as reference. This also means it should be entirely possible to do the same with humans, albeit far more complicated. Thus, no need to worry about degradation of the original template's genetic material, nor any need to worry about having enough of such material. I would expect this is the way they would have done it on Kamino. I don't believe they go into any painstaking detail on how the clones were precisely made in any of the novels though I might be mistaken. (I haven't read all of them) Most of it's simply plot devices that are obviously just there to create some sort of dramatic tension. Such as Boba's issues with having been a clone in the Legacy of the Force series.

 

No my friend. I have no intentions starting here 'religious' debates and I don't pretend to be top Universe guru on the subject. So only very short response.

 

It is known fact - it is NOT possible to create perfect copy of any advanced life form without genetic - however microscopic - degeneration. Even assuming theoretical-perfect clone (no degeneration) Any humanoid being would have to be progressively shorter and shorter (chromosomes cannot be cloned 1:1 - it is not a photocopier). Period.

 

Virus or bacteria is not exactly advanced life form. It doesn't think, it isn't sentient (developed brain), it doesn't feel - there is only instinct. Genetic mutation to create artificial genetic material is one thing, cloning is something completely different.

 

If we stick with sci-fi then look no further than Asgards from Stargate. Although show is focused on action, genetic cloning is well represented.

[a.fake.name]

Known fact: This is science FICTION with faster than light travel, and the schwartz.

1:1 cloning seems to be quite possible in this fiction, considering the Grand Army of the Republic's existence....

[johnchm.10]

the star wars universe is one wherein faster than light travel has advanced to a degree where half the galaxy can be crossed in a matter of weeks if not less. they can destroy planets. they can destroy star systems. i think its safe to assume that cloning is probably something they worked out. 

Edited by johnchm.10, 10 May 2014 - 06:32 PM.

[onlylogic]

 

 

LOL.War crimes? I was thinking about clones lately. Clone army of a Republic strikes me as utter nonsense which shouldn't ever be possible. I know that it's fiction, but it's also impossible to debate scientific facts related to cloning. [Yeah, yeah he was Mandalorian blah, blah]

 

You can't create vast army of clones from only one genetic template (even if you take whole body as a pool of genetic material - killing the donor in the process). To accommodate such endeavor Jango Fett's chromosomes had to be as big as Sol system (at least)   to create hundreds thousands/millions of cloned beings. Every new cloned being is degenerated genetically, every cloned being should be (or rather must be) shorter than previous clone. But all we see are ideal copies which is simply not possible - ever.

 

Cannon fodder - It looks good on the screen, fun reading too, but premise of clone army of Republic and later Empire and other is just absurd when dealing with facts. After ignoring that, then yes war crimes charges are logical. 

 

Aizen, you have no idea what you're talking about. We've already created fully synthesized viruses such as the polio virus. This means that we created the virus from scratch while only looking at the genome sequence as reference. This also means it should be entirely possible to do the same with humans, albeit far more complicated. Thus, no need to worry about degradation of the original template's genetic material, nor any need to worry about having enough of such material. I would expect this is the way they would have done it on Kamino. I don't believe they go into any painstaking detail on how the clones were precisely made in any of the novels though I might be mistaken. (I haven't read all of them) Most of it's simply plot devices that are obviously just there to create some sort of dramatic tension. Such as Boba's issues with having been a clone in the Legacy of the Force series.

 

No my friend. I have no intentions starting here 'religious' debates and I don't pretend to be top Universe guru on the subject. So only very short response.

 

It is known fact - it is NOT possible to create perfect copy of any advanced life form without genetic - however microscopic - degeneration. Even assuming theoretical-perfect clone (no degeneration) Any humanoid being would have to be progressively shorter and shorter (chromosomes cannot be cloned 1:1 - it is not a photocopier). Period.

 

Virus or bacteria is not exactly advanced life form. It doesn't think, it isn't sentient (developed brain), it doesn't feel - there is only instinct. Genetic mutation to create artificial genetic material is one thing, cloning is something completely different.

 

If we stick with sci-fi then look no further than Asgards from Stargate. Although show is focused on action, genetic cloning is well represented.

 

 

No...not "period". Just saying something doesn't make it true lol. Though I think you may believe that's the case. And I said nothing about religion at all so I don't know what you're talking about there. I'm talking about completely synthesizing a human cell including the chromosomes and then implanting it in a synthetic womb and creating the exact conditions that would be present during real gestation.

Viruses ARE advanced lifeforms in evolutionary terms. Evolution is not simply about how many cells you have or if you can speak perfect English. It's about adaptation to the environment through natural selection. Anyway, if you had the genetic information of an individual you could make an infinite amount of clones through synthesizing it molecularly from the ground up. You could essentially print yourself an embryonic cell as many times as you wanted with ZERO degradation. I don't know if your religious and this is why you're so against this, you seem to have implied that, but it doesn't change the FACT that this is possible. As of today, clones have been created in a number of different ways. Some of these were clones that in fact went on to reproduce. That's right. Clones do not have to be sterile and can produce healthy offspring. They can have babies. Referring to plot devices from Stargate is neither evidence nor an argument to the contrary.

[onlylogic]

I'm not talking about using forced mitosis to copy the same cell over and over. This would create degradation over time. I'm talking about complete synthetic replication of the donor genome.

[megabalta]

Hypothetically speaking, it is possible to protect the telomere caps, thus preserving the genetic information of the chromosomes even through mitotical proliferation . Of course some percentage of the new cells would be imperfect due to various replication failures and/or exterior environmental factors. However cells must also differentiate to create a non-unicellular beeing, which also contains a lot of opportunities for failure (just like in real life).

 

Molecular printing is also possible (in theory), I think startreks teleportation technology is based upon it in fiction (however it's pretty certain that it wouldn't work through a couple of seconds of flashy effects). Easy printing/manufacturing a stripped DNA molecule is pretty possible in the near future, however life/an organism is not just made of DNA, and DNA in itself could not create a beeing (not even a virus). And there's the problem of the mitochondrial DNA and the midichlorian thingies.

 

All in all, successful cloning is not impossible in any proportions (given time), and cloning vs normal reproduction is only a plot device for scifi.

Edited by megabalta, 11 May 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[skie9173]

Wasn't Boba the only perfect clone? I had thought that the majority of the clones had been at least slightly engineered for extra loyalty or specific tasks and such.

Or was that suppose to be part of their growth cycle afterwards?

[a.fake.name]

Wasn't Boba the only perfect clone? I had thought that the majority of the clones had been at least slightly engineered for extra loyalty or specific tasks and such.

Or was that suppose to be part of their growth cycle afterwards?

Boba was a fully unaltered clone.
In AotC it's even mentioned in relation to being part of Jango's payment.

[johnchm.10]

lol. i didnt expect this to turn out in the way it has so far

[a.fake.name]

Wasn't Boba the only perfect clone? I had thought that the majority of the clones had been at least slightly engineered for extra loyalty or specific tasks and such.

Or was that suppose to be part of their growth cycle afterwards?

Forgot to say on my inital reply:

From what I recall in the clone commando novels, all of the clones (other than Boba, who was payment and not a production model) were designed to age faster, and have more loyalty.
ARCs were prety much raw jango, aside from those.
Clone commandos were made a little beefier.
basic clone troopers were made more docile, to be better team players

And of course the Null series was an attempt to improve the Jango genome (minus the aging), which was so successful that the cloners shit themselves in fear.

[onlylogic]

Wasn't Boba the only perfect clone? I had thought that the majority of the clones had been at least slightly engineered for extra loyalty or specific tasks and such.

Or was that suppose to be part of their growth cycle afterwards?

Boba Fett was definitely not a perfect clone. There were many issues that showed up in his later life. He was however one of the only clones without an accelerated growth factor or altered in any fundamental way. So in that sense, yeah, he was a "perfect" clone of Jango.