505 replies to this topic

[UprisingJC]

Not that familiar with the quote function. Please allow me to reply with fonts in another color.

 

Speed: Dune riders > Siege cadres = Pyros

Doesn't matter for infantry. Did you know that Duneriders and Libra are supposed to be faster than Marauder (speed 8), yet Marauders are faster?
Speed above 7 has hardly any difference ingame for infantry (only at very long distances). So, 95% of the time, Siege Cadre = Pyro = Dunerider.
 

Okay...

 

Range: Siege cadres >=(only 0.5) Dune riders > Pyros

Unless the unit can attack on move (which no infantry can), 0.5 range difference hardly matters in 9/10 cases. You'd have to place the unit in a very specific position in order for it to benefit from that.

 

That's why I listed ">=".

 

Structure damage: Pyros > Dune riders > Siege cadres

This is how well they really do compared to Pyro and Dunerider (yes! this is the current public version).


If you wondered how they do against ConYards, this is how.


Duneriders are actually the worst anti-structure (slightly worse than Siege Cadres against ConYards)! Maybe when Tyhednus said that they sort of suck, he was right?
 

My bad for saying that dune riders do larger structure damage than siege cadres do, but IMO I still don't think they suck. Their firepower in both killing infantries and damaging structures may not be the highest but considering that they have a long range, their attack has an area of effect, they're amphibious and they can detect cloaked units, they're still cost-efficient. 

 

Infantry killing: Dune riders >(Due to its range) Pyros >>> Siege cadres

Really? Pyro > all. 3 Pyros kill 3 Duneriders (2 Pyros survive, and this is in BR2, where Duneriders are supposed to be more effective!). This is also when they all stand clustered.

 

What if they hit and run? Besides, for most of the time players are not only having 3 of those units, but I should have mentioned this point in advance. 

 

Survivability: Dune riders > Pyros > Siege cadres

Only if you count their amphibious capabilities. Otherwise, Pyro > all (because of hp, which, with their damage, makes them unkillable by T1 and T2 infantry, except Rocketeers).

 

Yes I do count that ability and they can hit and run against Pyros. That's why I listed it like that.

Edited by UprisingJC, 28 May 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[Petya]

Also about the Pyro vs Siege Cadre

 

Pyros can't be used against those structures, which are walled, while it isn't a problem for Siege Cadre. This may seem not a very good advantage at first time, but taking out structures like Battle Labs, Radars which are walled can't be taken out by Pyro, but by the Cadre.

[mevitar]

TBH, I don't know why i replied to that range thing. Must have copied too many lines to quote.

3 unit is an example (actually tested, and done so Pyro's and Dunerider's splash damage takes effect). In larger or mixed groups Pyros will be still more efficient, the Soviet player simply has to have same number of Pyros as enemy Duneriders (and they're still cheaper, so they can have more). Sure, Epsilon will now have Weavers, but the question is: will they be able to use them if Pyros can kill them before they get near?

The only time when Duneriders will be better is when you have Cloning Vats (but in case someone suggest balancing units around Cloning Vats, shouldn't Soviets have all their tanks even more expensive too, then? Nuwas buildable for 1500? they easily kill most of stuff with that cost).

Hit'n'run isn't really a viable option for them either if you're trying to kill a unit with the same speed (and like i wrote, it is practically the same) and with only slightly smaller range. Unless there is a water body nearby, or Pyros sit idly doing nothing, Duneriders will never escape Pyros, and if they will, they will be able only to attack once (if you stop them even for a moment when they are running away, Pyros will get near). Also, even few dogs can kill a small group of Duneriders (slow ROF), but you need a much larger amount of dogs (and spread them) to kill same group of Pyros (unless they're busy).

None of this would be an issue if Dunerider's deploy weapon worked reliably - even if main attack wouldn't be as efficient, they would still be able to do severe damage to structures, similarly to Ivans and SEALs. But it doesn't. It fails in the most inappropriate moments of the game, and when that happens, all you can do is watch your Duneriders being killed one by one. I've never seen see anyone using it, except me and Speeder (and most of the Epsilon players don't even use Duneriders in the first place - sounds familiar?).

Edited by mevitar, 28 May 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[Protozoan]

 

Speed: Dune riders > Siege cadres = Pyros

Doesn't matter for infantry. Did you know that Duneriders and Libra are supposed to be faster than Marauder (speed 8), yet Marauders are faster?
Speed above 7 has hardly any difference ingame for infantry (only at very long distances). So, 95% of the time, Siege Cadre = Pyro = Dunerider.
 

 

Thank fucking God she isn't.

 

 

 

Survivability: Dune riders > Pyros > Siege cadres

Only if you count their amphibious capabilities. Otherwise, Pyro > all (because of hp, which, with their damage, makes them unkillable by T1 and T2 infantry, except Rocketeers).

 

 

What about BR2 SEALs?

Edited by Protozoan, 29 May 2014 - 01:12 AM.

[Toveena]

Giff Dunerider deploy weapon affectallies = no, else it sucks, too.

 

 

 

For pryo... 200hp uncrashable meat shield which also rapes hordes of infantries

Edited by Toveena, 29 May 2014 - 02:25 AM.

[Martinoz]

[CaaNeeR]

WTF Kivz...

[doctormedic]

What about instead of Artillery Track is Hind Track then his weapon still 12.7mm DsHK / 23mm Artillery Cannon.

I suggest that instead of attack dog are Shepherd, Husky and K-9.

 

The soviets had k-9 in red alert

Also

[Divine]

 

What about instead of Artillery Track is Hind Track then his weapon still 12.7mm DsHK / 23mm Artillery Cannon.

Maybe the better name is Gun Track.

23mm is not exactly artillery caliber.... But what exactly are you suggesting? To modify the halftrack to have a heavy machine gun and an autocannon?

Edited by Divine, 29 May 2014 - 11:36 AM.

[Atomic_Noodles]

He wants it to be called the Flak Track again and be armed with the Sentinels Cannon.

[Tyhednus]

Wait, when did I say that Duneriders sucked? I can vaguely remember a post like that, but that was about the infantry of the factions in general.

[LewlNewb]

Will the BR2 update be done by clicking the 'Check for update' button in the MO Launcher when it is released?

[Zenothist]

Yes, you will be able to update the mod with the launcher. 

[mevitar]

Wait, when did I say that Duneriders sucked? I can vaguely remember a post like that, but that was about the infantry of the factions in general.

You didn't specifically say that they suck, but that their health is low, and you wanted to give them a hp buff so they can take more damage in frontal assaults. That's why i wrote "sort of suck".
 

What about BR2 SEALs?

1 SEAL dies to a Pyro, nothing changed with that (unless you're going to attack them from water, which is even harder than for Duneriders due to 1.5 range difference).
 

Giff Dunerider deploy weapon affectallies = no, else it sucks, too.

The issue is not that it kills your own infantry, but using it is a gamble - either it will work and will do a big mess of everything around (including Duneriders), or it bugs out with no effect and Duneriders are sitting ducks for 10 seconds (to those that never withessed this, you can't do anything with them when that happens). If it worked reliably, you would at least know that you're going to destroy something by sending them on a suicide mission.

Edited by mevitar, 29 May 2014 - 04:01 PM.

[Meyerm]

Glad that Heaven and Hell is going to be easier. That mission is impossible. But I guess, since it's not 2 G.I.s against 12 legions of pyros, it's considered easy by MO standards.

[UprisingJC]

Glad that Heaven and Hell is going to be easier. That mission is impossible. But I guess, since it's not 2 G.I.s against 12 legions of pyros, it's considered easy by MO standards.

It's possible, but just slow-paced in BR1.

Edited by UprisingJC, 30 May 2014 - 06:32 AM.

[MIG]

Glad that Heaven and Hell is going to be easier. That mission is impossible. But I guess, since it's not 2 G.I.s against 12 legions of pyros, it's considered easy by MO standards.

It's possible, but just slow-paced in BR1.

Are you free this weekend?

[Black/Brunez]

Glad that Heaven and Hell is going to be easier. That mission is impossible. But I guess, since it's not 2 G.I.s against 12 legions of pyros, it's considered easy by MO standards.

Actually yhat mission was pretty easy. The issue is that the BR1 version was slow paced and there were momments where waiting for your SEALS to autoheal was a must.

[Martinoz]

Edited by Martinoz, 30 May 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[Hecthor Doomhammer]

What about if each subfaction has a unique Miner:

 

How about NO!