57 replies to this topic

[thudo]

1vs1 for testing balance is good but so long as you can reproduce/duplicate your findings then we can address them.

 

Generally, I like to look at all facets of the faction mod being testing: ie. ensure all info on all units, buildings, researches, addons, abilities, etc is accurate, complete, and grammatically-correct. Also, look at everything that it looks graphically fine (no bugs or defects within reason) when doing most tasks. Keep a sharp eye out for anything that should be questioned/critiqued.

 

Thank you so very much for your analysis - this is what we need "across the board" from our projects to delivery quality.

[0HawkLord0]

Okay so I have continued to test the Space Wolves, and I have some more thoughts/ideas for your consideration. Little more detailed report then my first one.

 

1: In my first post I mentioned switching the blood Claws and Scout units production buildings. I believe that this is a good course of action because the Wolves especially in the hands of the AI are rather slow in terms of capping points, and getting strategic footing on the map. This is not as bad on small 1v1 maps, but on larger maps this is an issue. The AI build order goes with a Blood Claw or two, and builds multiple Iron Priests, or tech-marines. This stunts their growth due to the high cost of units early on, and it makes the AI play defensively. I would suggest an increase in the size of the scout squad, along with increasing their load out options once tier two is reached, as of now they only can be given one upgrade, and there is little reason to build them. I would say giving them sniper rifles and maybe a flamer/plasma gun would help them keep their utility as scouts are supposed to have in the fluff, and it keeps them in line with other scouts factions like the Dark Angels, and vanilla scouts as well. Maybe upgrading them with chain-swords could be interesting as well? Not sure if that is doable or not. The Emperor's Wolves are his executioners, with fluff like that I would suggest that playing defense is not in their nature, and it makes them weaker, as they are an offensive army but end up being forced into a defensive posture and thus they get overwhelmed. I have noticed this when playing against Orks, Dark Eldar, and Chaos Marines, they attack early, and they can put the wolves on the back foot in the hands of the AI on hard difficulty. Hardest difficultly is tougher still, especially in team games the Wolves end up losing their side relatively fast, but I think it is an easy fix. 

 

2: If the change is made, I would make the Grey Slayers and Blood Claws have comparable health, and squad size, and both cost 300 REQ as to make them a choice between melee or ranged squads at tier 1.5 making strategic decisions more relevant in terms of army structure, thus not breaking balance either. If this were to be done I would also make sure to not allow Grey Slayers to have any more plasma rifles, the entire squad can get them, and they become Ork and Space Marine killers, it's very strong and I would lower that to one less plasma rifle.

I would lower the cost of sky claws and little bit, they cost a lot at the moment, and while they are great, I think they are a bit to expensive, maybe 340, instead of 360?

 

3: I like that the wolves get the Leman Russ, I think it's neat for sure, but what I have found myself doing, is getting a Leman, and then when I get my Land Raider, I have to get the standard version with Lass cannons because I am lacking anti-armor vehicle punch. Might I suggest maybe an upgrade to customize the Leman a little more, allowing you to have a decent main battle tank if you can't get a Land Raider in the absence of a relic. I think this would help late armor out in a big way from a game play standpoint. Not sure if it is entirely fluff compatible however, but balanced game play does take precedence, otherwise the Necrons would be modded out of the game . On another note, perhaps giving the Land Raiders a hunter killer missile for a little extra punch? This is needed for sure if you can't change the Leman around, a hunter-killer would help offset that a little bit. I think this would fit in nicely with the offensive style of the Space Wolves, and give them more bang for their buck as it were. It might be a nice addition anyway, giving the space Wolves more offensive ability, and make the player choose more carefully in how to dealt with them.

 

3A: Possible Bug; The invincibility machine spirit ability doesn't always seem to work on the Land Raiders, it fires but sometimes they still get dealt damage. Not sure if it is a bug or not, but it was an issue I noticed it seems to happen when it is engaged with other vehicles.

 

4: On the issue of offense, I would say maybe having a rule that the Wolves can't use turrets or can't build 6 of them? This is more the fluff talking here, but as an army that wants to Rip&Tear for the most part, turrets are a little out of their element. Just a minor issue there, if their play is supposed to be offensive, then I don't think it matters if they have turrets or not, best offense is a good defense. 

 

5: I was checking out the MDB form and I was looking through the comments on the mod, most people were complaining about the lack of infiltration detection. I found that I never had a problem, if you need it really bad, against Tau or Edar, one Fenris wolf pack gets the job done, along with the Wolf Lord. But as a fun upgrade I was thinking of maybe allowing the Blood Claws to be upgraded with a pet wolf or two, not sure, just something that could be fun, but is honestly not needed. I really don't think its a major problem at all. 

 

5A: The Wolf Guard Melee Terminators need to have another member or two added, they are a bit underwhelming for terminators, they have a low damage output IMHO. The Ranged terminators are really nice, but maybe more weapon options? maybe allowing them to get a flamer or a terminator auto cannon would help them be even better, and let them have a bit of utility as well. 

 

6: I have seen the model for the Wolf Guard in tactical armor with the superior bolters, but the unit is not implemented in game. I think it would be neat to give the Wolves a Tactical Squad honor guard, that would be designed for the Chaplin or librarian to attach to, the model looks good in the army painter but isn't in game, made me sad  . Maybe it could be built from the sacred artifact building? Or Wolf Lodge? I forget the name of the building the produces the Rune Priest. 

 

7: Glitch report; when the tech-marine is in combat, and surrounded, every once in a while he gets stuck in a frozen building animation with his servo harness fully extended in all directions around his model. This has happened to me only twice, and I have had a lot of trouble duplicating it, it's not game breaking and it quickly corrects itself. Again I have tried to get it to happened multiple times, and in tons of play-tests I've seen it twice, definitely not a major issue. 

 

7A: The tech-marine has the rally ability which is kind useless because you can get sergeants at tier two with the same ability, and they are cheaper, and they aren't limited in number. The tech-marine when attached to a squads also makes the entire squad a builder unit so to speak and has to be moved manually apart from the rest of your army. It's needless micro, and once you get a sergeant he isn't really needed. Maybe giving him a sabotage ability instead, and taking away his attachment ability, I think the AI would also use the unit better in that capacity as well. Personally I found little use for him in combat because I was building to get to the 2nd tier anyway so that my squads could be filled out once built.

 

7B: Also maybe limiting the number you can build to three, the AI builds four of them early on, and is again detrimental to it's effectiveness.

 

8: Cosmetic suggestion. The wolf lord of the Space wolves 13th might be a better choice for the normal space wolves, maybe switching the two around? The Space Wolves wolf lord looks like he has the wolfen curse, and his weapon seems a little heretical. BLAM, Heresy!! Anyway just an observation that might make a little more visual sense as the 13th have a wolfen lord, who doesn't seem super wolfen to me.

 

9: Overall this project is really solid, and doesn't need much work, a few things moved around and I think its well on its way to joining the ranks of finished projects, It looks good, the army has a good feel, animations are good, FX is good, I think they are in great shape!

Edited by 0HawkLord0, 21 October 2018 - 12:42 PM.

[thudo]

Once more a solid report good sir! We sincerely need more of this, everywhere!!

 

I cannot answer all that although one thing I do know: SW utterly steamrolls most over. I find they win 80-90% of games so in some respect they need some nerfing.

 

Re: Too many builders.. odd.. I never found this to be an issue and the AI limits itself to 2 Techmarines ( I think 4 Techmarines) is too many anyway IMO but that wasn't my decision.

[0HawkLord0]

Yeah do end up winning most of the games I have observed them as AI but it seems to happen mostly in the mid game stages from what I have observed, they are able to bring more squads then other factions are and can actually outnumber people once they get an economy going. Another thing I wanted to add was in this respect making more advanced infantry units cost 3 or even 4 population to make this a little less unbalanced. Thanks for bringing that up, I forgot to mention this!

[thudo]

Btw when you provide your "point form" analysis can you do the following:

 

First, elaborate on your suggestions as you are currently doing BUT, if there is a "Request for Change" then at the end of each major point of the whole paragraph simply summarize it 1-2 sentences but BOLD FACE it. This way, in future, we can come back and easily reference it quick to more effectively implement such changes if the team agrees to it.

 

Its very hard and time consuming sometimes to go through each point and figure out what needs to be fix. Elaboration is good but a real quick bold-faced summary at the end (if its a "Request for Change") is very welcome.

[0HawkLord0]

Not a problem! I can do that for sure. Yeah with a big post it's hard to sift through especially if you're working on multiple things. Not problem at all.

[thudo]

Thank you good sir!

 

That also goes for everyone else but feedback on our projects from "outside" the dev community has been sparse hence why we sincerely need vetting from another player other than us vet modders.

[fuggles]

I have lost the 13th, how is that doing?

 

From the above I really just get that Blood Claws need nerfing. Remember that scouts are space wolf veterans, not cubs as in other races so should come out later. Lowering health is probably the answer, but I am totally open to them being squad cap 2.

 

Sky claws are just blood claws with back packs in the codex, make of that what you will.

 

Grey hunters should have smaller squads than blood claws as they do not replace loss. They are not directly comparable to blood claws and should not have same health and abilities.

 

Why do you need more ranged weapons than assault cannon and cyclone for the terminators! The bolter is a significant downgrade I would have thought?

 

You can't really change the loadout on the leman russ as then it's not the one that the wolves used.

 

That's my thoughts anyway, I would much rather the structure stays with BC getting a nerf bat.

Edited by fuggles, 03 December 2018 - 05:35 PM.

[thudo]

Haven't had the time to work on this one... been soo busy with other projects.

[fuggles]

As we need a least one patch I had Kekoulis mangle some units together - going to need to remove the yellow on the chestplate but opinions on...Deathsworn:

 

Elite infantry with stasis grenades.

[Unsociallobster]

Here is brother Iserador's report from his trails.

 

 

 

 

Below will provide a link to the log files with test battles. Archive for the tenth of September is a bug with the Long fangs with the missing icon.

 

There are also more extensive notes on balancing. Previously I already referred about replacing scouts on more expensive and effective substitute for. But now there were other thoughts. Next, point by point.

 

 

Initial. The blood claws are too strong at the moment. The full two groups completely outnumber the other initial infantry of the other factions (including the combine mod, the enraged Marines, and the farsighted enclaves), in fact they can be used as a decent replacement for Khorne's Berserkers. My proposal-increase number, reduce performance health and damage. The point of the blood claws is to be cannon fodder to select the strongest candidates who will then become Grey Hunters.

 

Second. Directly are the Grey hunters. These guys should outperform most of the tactical squads of other orders thanks to Canis Helix. Which means-long range, speed, accuracy, strength in close combat. I suggest making them expensive but effective.

 

Third. It's more of a joke, but why not give the wolf Marines the ability to see all the Invisibles? Canis Helix Amen.

 

Fourth. The technique is in principle satisfactory. But the people demand Bjorn! Can as replacing or substitute for landraider?

 

Well, that's just my opinion. If it disagrees with the team's opinion, so be it

 

Ссылки на архивы

 

Test 16 Sep https://drive.google...FTE9q1fLRl/view

 

Test 10 Sep https://drive.google...SwkMYUpgey/view

 

In conclusion, I want to say. Even if I wasn't accepted, I was happy to help with that. Gives hope that there are still people who play and love Dawn of War, once still produce fashion. Good luck guys. Awaiting your decision.

Edited by Unsociallobster, 21 September 2019 - 06:14 PM.

[fuggles]

I think definitely blood claws should be 2 squad cap, that's my bad.

 

Why does everyone keep suggesting in different mods to give all units detection? You lose an entire mechanic which really dicks over some races. Wolves probably has some of the most generous detection going.

 

Not sure we have a bjorn model, but that might be stepping on the toes of 13th...?

[Kekoulis]

Bjorn is how the SW FC commander model if this helps.

 

 

Why does everyone keep suggesting in different mods to give all units detection?

Probably should mention it someweher.bUt please,do not give a random unit detection.

[fuggles]

They mean bjorn the dreadnought I think. I haven't given any random unit detection - it's mostly wolves as they smell stuff.

[Kekoulis]

They mean bjorn the dreadnought I think. I haven't given any random unit detection - it's mostly wolves as they smell stuff.

Ah that one.They will be waiting for it for a long time then.

[BranBranTheTester]

Hey all, I recently applied to be a tester with Unsociallobster, he made me test out Space Wolves and find some bugs, I have finished, showed him and he said to post it here for you lot!

 

Have fun reading this all!

 

I've just gone through a match of me playing space wolves against Orks, I've found multiple possible issues, I shall list them below. I've had a brief look through warnings.log soundmessages.txt & artmessages.txt they seem to also show some other mods in there (Like Nightlords etc.), I only played with space wolves enabled, there were some messages that I will copy & Paste (Since I can't attach .txt and .log files. I've also added some High - Low priority messages after the issues, that's what I think is serious or not.

 

Sound Issues:

- Long Fang Plasma Cannons extremely quiet, can only hear them with the whole squad equipped with them. (Medium Priority, would hardly notice with other guns firing)

- Rune Priests Hellfrost Ability is dead quiet, increase volume of its effects, if it has any (Medium Priority)

 

UI Issues:

- Wolf Priests UI shows him in normal marine armour, he spawns in terminator, fixes to UI may be needed as its un-immersive (low Priority)

- Wolf Priest also appears with a Jetpack in the UI, he is in terminator armour. (Low Priority)

- Librarian has a Helmet in the UI picture while he doesn't on the battlefield, fix needed (?)

- Land Raider and Land Raider Redeemer both have "Heavy Vehicle" and "Super Heavy Transport/Gunship". Possible issue?

- Land Raider Crusader doesn't have either "Heavy Vehicle" or "Super Heavy Transport/Gunship" in its description. (Low Priority since those lines are normally ignored by me, not 100% sure about others on the other hand.)

- Wolf Scouts Stalker Bolter description says the weapon is able to fire on the move, weapon doesn't do this, Needs set-up time. Possible issue with description or weapon? (Low Priority)

 

Visual Issues:

- Fenersian Wolves have an almost box-like appearance just after the collar, does not look right at all. (Medium Priority, looks out of place with its current textures, make it like a saddle then it'll look better)

- Fenersian Wolves tails look very weird and more like squished bread. (High Priority, throws me off from using them)

- Fenersian Wolves eyes are an oval shape with the fur as its colour. (Low Priority, hardly see the eyes)

- Long fangs Plasma Cannons rarely seem to make an explosion. (Medium Priority)

- Rune Priests Hellfrost blast ability needs to have a bigger visual effect, from the shooting to the impact and explosion, I didn't even notice I fired it. (high Priority)

- All helmet-less leader heads seem to have an issue with their mouths, looks very off, they also seem to have an issue with the side of there head with the connections not properly done, seams appear. (Med-High Priority, heads are ugly with those mouths.)

- Lone wolf seems too short considering he is in Terminator armour. (Low Priority)

- Terminators just a little bit too short, Terminators are slightly taller than normal marines because of their armour. (Low Priority)

- Fenersian Wolves seem to spaz out when killed by an explosion, normally falling onto their back before glitchy up and down with legs going stupid. (Low Priority)

- All Flamer weapons visuals never reach the range of the weapon, making it look like the enemy is dying without being hit. Just extend the visual range of them if possible. (Low Priority, only un-immersive)

 

Gameplay Issues:

- Longfang Heavy Bolter able to fire through the ground, making hills seem to not exist to them (the emperor must be with them), this makes maps with hills for cover useless. (High Priority)

- Long Fangs Lascannon has no set up time as it says in the description of the weapon, making vehicles disappear at first sight. (high Priority)

- long Fangs Plasma Cannons hardly ever does damage, if it misses make it so the projectile goes past the target, it's a little bit deceptive. (Medium Priority)

- Grey hunters flamers attack through the ground, making hills useless for cover. (High Priority)

- Leman Russ Exterminator's Pintle Flamers fire even if they aren't facing the enemy, the vehicle does correct itself after a couple of seconds. (Low Priority)

- Land Raider Crusader able to shoot through the ground and hills, making hills as cover useless. (High Priority)

- Wolf Scouts Stalker Bolter description says the weapon is able to fire on the move, weapon doesn't do this, Needs set-up time. Possible issue with description or weapon? (Low Priority)

 

Balance issues:

- Lone Wolf runs very quickly, way to fast since he is in terminator armour. (Medium Priority)

- Lone wolf should have more health since he is terminator armour (Medium Priority)

- Wolf priests health to low, he gets killed very quickly, considering he is also in terminator armour. (Medium Priority)

- Sky Claws are too weak, they need either some more damage or more health. (Medium Priority)

 

Other Issues:

Skinbatching appeared at amazing amounts throughout the games console and the warnings.log, it changes every time, but normally appeared like this:

17:21:34.06 SKINBATCHING -- Maximum unit shader IB size exceeded. Current size: 24048, requested addition: 819, max size: 24576. Please reduce the poly count.
17:21:34.06 Lock of skin batcher failed. This is a sad day for skin batchers everywhere.
17:21:34.06 SKINBATCHING -- Maximum unit shader VB size exceeded. Current size: 11181, requested addition: 1416, max size: 12288. Please reduce the poly count.
17:21:34.06 Lock of skin batcher failed. This is a sad day for skin batchers everywhere.

warnings.log file was 88,580kb big, consisting of those errors, plus startup and shutdown lines.

 

soundmessages.txt file also had some differences that may be errors (I'm not 100% Certain), they are as follows:

Streaming patch races/space_marines/marines_shared/marine_footfalls/footfalls_dirtsand cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/shared/bullet_impacts_heavy_armor cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/shared/bullet_impacts_heavy_armor cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/space_marines/dreadnought/footfalls cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/shared/bullet_impacts_heavy_armor cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/shared/bullet_impacts_heavy_armor cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/space_marines/troops_weapons/assault_cannon cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/space_marines/troops_weapons/assault_cannon cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/space_marines/marines_shared/marine_footfalls/footfalls_dirtsand cannot have more than 1 max polyphony
Streaming patch races/space_marines/marines_shared/marine_footfalls/footfalls_dirtsand cannot have more than 1 max polyphony

soundmessages.txt was 887kb big, containing lines that are like that, just with different weapons, names, etc.

 

artmessages.txt had some warnings appear through the text, they are as follows:

'Tankbustas': WARNING -- Motion 'thrown_2_shared' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
TEXTURES -- 'art/ebps/races/orks/texture_share/bigger_generator': has texture on 'Self Illumination' channel!
'Bigger_Generator': WARNING -- Motion 'build_2_structure_rise' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
TEXTURES -- 'art/ebps/races/orks/texture_share/generator_a': has texture on 'Self Illumination' channel!
'Generator': WARNING -- Motion 'build_2_structure_rise' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
'Mek_Shop': WARNING -- Motion 'build_2_structure_rise' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
'Pile_O_Guns': WARNING -- Motion 'build_2_structure_rise' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
'Waagh_Banner': WARNING -- Motion 'build_2_structure_rise' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
'Apothecary': WARNING -- Motion 'thrown_1' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
'Apothecary': WARNING -- Motion 'thrown_2' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
'Sergeant': WARNING -- Motion 'thrown_1_shared' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!
'Sergeant': WARNING -- Motion 'thrown_2_shared' has an absolute modifier, has events, and does not ignore transitions -- it may skip events!

 

The file was 44kb Big, consisting of mainly those lines but for different objects, models, etc.

 

 

I hope this wasn't too long for you to read. Have a good day/night.

 

 

 

[Gambit]

Anyone to address those?

[Kekoulis]

Anyone to address those?

Personally,I love the structure of this review and I hope our brother behind this one,keeps it up for other projects as well.

Maybe a bit too nitpicky on the visuals,but nothing offensive or bad.

The models of the Space Wolf are indeed not the best.

 

Thing is,the SW are not my project and unfortunately,I do not have time to undertake an another one.Unless Deathwatch gives me his sexy Wolf Guard models.
And,we could also use this bad wolf that I have ready if you want.Deathwatch told me we should.

I guess maybe Fuggles if he wishes for a side quest to revisit it or Roderick,since he wished to tackle these guys.

 

Lastly,to BranBranTheTester:

You do not have to list the other issues in your reports.These are normal game errors from the vanilla.
You only post these if you have a missing FX,sound or pink boxes of doom.

[thudo]

This is the kind of "point form" reporting we need for ALL DoW1 mod projects.

 

Also, as Kek stated, all those "other issues" are the expected standard dumps so nothing to worry about. The REAL issues to always look for in those dump files can be found HERE! Those mentioned in that thread is what we really need to know about.

[BranBranTheTester]

 

Anyone to address those?

Personally,I love the structure of this review and I hope our brother behind this one,keeps it up for other projects as well.

Maybe a bit too nitpicky on the visuals,but nothing offensive or bad.

The models of the Space Wolf are indeed not the best.

 

Thing is,the SW are not my project and unfortunately,I do not have time to undertake an another one.Unless Deathwatch gives me his sexy Wolf Guard models.
And,we could also use this bad wolf that I have ready if you want.Deathwatch told me we should.

I guess maybe Fuggles if he wishes for a side quest to revisit it or Roderick,since he wished to tackle these guys.

 

Lastly,to BranBranTheTester:

You do not have to list the other issues in your reports.These are normal game errors from the vanilla.
You only post these if you have a missing FX,sound or pink boxes of doom.

 

Thanks for stating those, that's a real help, I wasn't too sure about the log and txt's, they just seemed to be issues to me, not a normal thing. Thanks for the feedback!

 

This is the kind of "point form" reporting we need for ALL DoW1 mod projects.

 

Also, as Kek stated, all those "other issues" are the expected standard dumps so nothing to worry about. The REAL issues to always look for in those dump files can be found HERE! Those mentioned in that thread is what we really need to know about.

Thanks, I wasn't too sure if those were issues with the mod or not, thats why I reported them, but those are the only things to look for right? I'll remember that for next time, Thanks!