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naval ships unbalanced on maps?


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#1 Guest_navalfreak1_*

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 03:48 PM

hi some of you might remember me formalong time ago i used to do research and stuff for code red, mostly the units and stuff. but i had a speacial interest in navys

anyway i dont kno if you have used the navys alot but the ships all of the classes are very powerful for thier cost if you consider it.

take for instance britain it has 2 types of deystroyers a high end one and a low end one with a few 100 creds between them, but have you noticed that these units are juggernuants for thier cost.

1. the high end ones instant kill any plane that tries to attack them with the first missile netting that ship a 1300$ kill straight away. then its usually sunk by the other planes in the squadron but it always gets its money back.

2. if you have ships together they can often kill the squadron of planes even if they only sink one of the ships which they have to use all thier missles for anyway.

3. most of the deystroyers except the american ships have shore bombardment missles or gun batterys which are really efective against units as they should be.
i have broken many a tank rush by useing deystroyers close in to start fireing at the tanks.

4. they are extremly difficult to kill and very resiliant they need at least 3 planes to get through and bomb a single ship to make sure it dies. they can also beat tanks toe to toe.

5. artillary is pathetic against them they do very little damage, the deystroyers usually clsoe up to them and blow them to peices cos of the artillarys weak armour. makeing artilary some what useless or just fire a cruise missle form out of thier range then run away.

6. if you have lost naval superiority on maps like bay of pigs its over no question enemy air power doesnt stand a chance against the naval ships. one deystroyer needs 4 planes to kill it in one strike.
every navy ship can defend itself from air attacks navy attacks and ground attacks. and will usually if by itself always kill one plane which costs the same as the ship.

so i have a few suggestions that can be made to limit the efectiveness of the ships

maybe look to makeing an anti ship jet fighter. which fires one missle that does alot of damage to one ship. from a long range. but maybe allow the ship to try and shoot down the missle or depending on how close the plane got fire at the plane. this could keep enemy ships at bay and minimise the amount of planes you have to sink one deystroyer. from 4 to 2 per ship.

increase the cost of naval ships by a fair amunt to take into account thier obvious uberness and power.

or introduce a land unit which fires a guided rocket maybe like the old v3 launcher which could fire a missle at range but also allow the ship a chance to fire its missle in defence againt the rocket.

if you ahve read this far well done hehe you reckon i have any standing cos i know alot of people dont use navys. but jsut try it and see.

#2 Allied General

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 03:57 PM

Code Red is being completly revamped and uh counter navy with navy :rolleyes:
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#3 Guest_navalfreak1_*

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 04:03 PM

its never that easy mate if you get your naval yard bombed or attack early thats it game over mate. thast the point im trying to get across that thier is nothing you can do if you lose naval superiority

#4 Allied General

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 04:10 PM

its never that easy mate if you get your naval yard bombed or attack early thats it game over mate. thast the point im trying to get across that thier is nothing you can do if you lose naval superiority

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but isnt' that the same in real-life combat :rolleyes:

its different strageties of rusher vs long-term builder.
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#5 Guest_navalfreak1_*

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 04:22 PM

ok then in that case would you say its still fair for thier price cost to require 4 planes costing 1400$ each to take down one deystroyer costing the same?. not economical.

thier should be some other way of at least keeping his navy from wipeing your base clean off the map with blassitic missles and gun abtterys though, or failing that keep them from your shore

#6 Guest_navalfreak1_*

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 04:24 PM

oh didnt read that and i spose your right but in real life combat those ships can kill all 4 planes before they get near the ship :rolleyes: to drop launch a missle or bomb

#7 Major_Gilbear

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 05:12 PM

Firstly, welcome. Yes, I do remember you :rolleyes:

Next up, the whole mod is being totally revamped. Navies will be smaller, typically three units per country. This is partly to make room for the new country Germany, and partly because it made no sense to have two or three similar ships for each side (as you pointed out). Also, not all maps have water on them.

Not all ships will have AA now, and aircraft will be more effective against them. Ships still outrange planes by a lot though, so a well set-out defensive formation of ships with AA capabilities will still reap a heavy toll of enemy aircraft.

Ships will also have their own armour, to stop land units like tanks and infantry sinking them. Ships are sunk with naval or air power usually, and I'd like that to be the same in CR.

Ships will still be powerful, but won't be the mega-uber-death-dealers that they used to be. Carriers and SSBNs are still lethal though if players fail to stop them; however these and other Captial Ships will be really very expensive and slow to build, and their planes/missiles can be shot down.

Not all ships will be expensive or take a long time to build; I would like to see players considering naval options wherever appropriate, and not just to counter the enemy's. What you will see that the really powerful ships are expensive and slow to build, as well as having trouble defending themselves well. Lighter ships will provide general support (Anti-ship, ASW, AA, coastal bombardment, etc), and Subs will generally fill the hunter role. This means that players will need to create balanced forces, and don't *have* to build the Capital Ships (although they are very desirable and powerful units!).

#8 Guest_navalfreak1_*

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 05:45 PM

ok that sounds fair enough, although i dislike the removal of some of the combat ships, which ships may i ask are haveing thier anti air equipment removed, i wouldnt say remove them maybe tone them down.

but i think the 2 types of deystroyers should stay or you could possibley change them turn one into a very good anti sub or anti ship deystroyer. and turn the other into a very very good anti air ship say longer range on missles but limited or not very good at fighting other ships?

get rid of some of the extra tanks to make room or the pointless mortar infantry ^^. dont neglect navys. more interesting and flashy battles in my opinion lots of smoke etc and explosions.

#9 Major_Gilbear

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 06:24 PM

I am removing many units that were pointless, don't worry.

Ships, choppers and tanks are all treated by Ra2 as vehicles, and there is a 100 unit limit on those.

I've already decided which ships will be in; just wait and see :rolleyes:.

#10 Guest_navalfreak1_*

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 06:36 PM

remove repair ships they are pointless and replce them with two types of fleet defence ships jsut gives ships a small self heal ability. and yea get rid of choppers they are a waste

#11 Allied General

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 07:52 AM

hmm perhaps make missiles more inaccurate or cause much less spread multipler damage?

You could also consider adding ammo to units, especially for the SSBN's.

also how about those human torpedoes and cheap demolition units that Iran would use?

also isn't the classic tactic to swarm an ship with naval and aircraft at once.

Edited by Allied General, 26 May 2005 - 07:53 AM.

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#12 Az3r^

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 09:28 AM

yeah, when i play the original i go for the big guns first, i use air and sea and then deal with the support after, just like in RL , i dunno i mean they have ground defences right, if you want to stop missiles just bulid anti-missile/air defenses ?
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#13 Major_Gilbear

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 10:57 AM

Yes, you are supposed to swarm a ship with several aircraft at once.

SSBNs will have missiles like the Yuri Boomer; they will have limited ammo and the missiles can be shot down. This is so that they are comparable to ACCs in game-terms, as well it being reasonably realistic.

Iran will not have human torpedoes or other stupid units like that. Code Red is suppsed to be semi-serious, and jokey units like that belong in Generals. Iran will have a suicide infantryman (only because they have a record for doing such things as suicide attacks and human-wave assaults), and that is it. No crap like demo boats, demo planes, demo trucks, demo cars and Toxin Tractors.

Choppers will be in; two per side currently, there is usually an attack chopper and a unility chopper. Some sides will have fewer, some will have more, and in one case the chopper roles might overlap a bit.

#14 Allied General

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 11:03 AM

i though human torpedoes were acceptable weapons?

i'm sure the argentineans used them.

so how does iran counter navy :laugh:
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#15 Major_Gilbear

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 11:37 AM

Iran has weak naval forces. It relies mostly on preventing the enemy from using theirs rather than countering it directly with thier own. The Iranian naval units will be mostly used as wolf packs or "speed bumps", depending on the situation. They are not really meant to stand toe-to-toe with other navies in a direct engagement.

Iran will have to be "sneakier" in its tactics compared to other countries if it is to pull off a win. It will still be balanced, but it will require different tactics to ther other five countries.

#16 wilmet

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:20 PM

oooh sneakyness , I love it :laugh:

we're not talking rubber dingies with commandos and sticks of dynamite per chance ?
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#17 Allied General

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:22 PM

oooh sneakyness , I love it  :cool:

we're not talking rubber dingies with commandos and sticks of dynamite per chance ?

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lol probably not.

I always find "stealth" to be hard in cnc games :laugh:
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#18 Major_Gilbear

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:40 PM

No rubber dinghies, no human torpedoes. If you want to know what Iran will have as a its naval units, a little research on your part will yeild the answer :laugh:.

And I didn't say that Iran would be stealthy AG, I said players would be encouraged to be sneaky when playing as Iran.

#19 Az3r^

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:43 PM

that really makes me intrested, i like the sneakyness
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#20 Allied General

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:44 PM

that really makes me intrested, i like the sneakyness

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lol same here, generically sneak is light armour, high speed, disguise & stealth but MG always surprises :laugh:
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