48 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

i've come to the conclusion that we are in a time where great changes are approaching. the internet allows us to send incredible amounts of information from one side of the globe to the other within seconds. the mass media is able to cover cases around the world and send the information back to every house with a television or a radio in it. transportation allows us to be anywhere on the globe within 15-24 hours.

all of these variables are things that makes the world smaller. alot of good has happened because of it, but i fear that we will in a short while feel the problems connected to this. we can see it pretty clear in the wars today. 9/11 was indirectly caused by US cultural influences which offended funtamentalist people(also the support of Israel had quite alot to say there, but we can probably connect the problems there to media-coverage aswell).which again gave the US a good reason to get down and dirty in the middle east.

the real reasons for attacking Iraq is pretty murky, although the noble quest of dethroning the evil dictator looks good on paper, the side-effects that we see today murks up the picture a bit. But i would say we are not only in a war against terror, its a war against anti-western culture. then, how do we fight a war of culture? we cannot bomb culture unless we remove every shred of life belonging to that culture, and since that will be pretty hard as it would be akin to what Hitler was doing, there has to be other ways.

what do you think? how will this end?

[earini]

How will this end? Badly. I might just be a pessimist, but the way things are going, I don't think I really want to be around to see what things are like 10 or 15 years from now. I think society (as we know it) is on the verge of collapse. There are many reasons why I think this, but as far as this topic goes, I think the ease of cultural interaction has made things too unstable.

[Hostile]

IMO, I'm thinking it may not matter which path the US took. The western powers collectively as well as the Eastern powers are dealing with a mass migration of people and ideology into thier lands.

It's called the Islamic Extremists. Thier goal is to move to your land, hidden among the normal masses, counter your beliefs, change your laws, by using your system.

http://www.startribu...ory/826056.html

While at first read there is a question of how can the US institutions such as an airline do this? But as you read on you'll find the details of why people became suspicious.

Don't tell me if you're about to fly and 6 orthodox muslims are praying at the gate of the airport before boarding, and chanting Allah is Great, that you wouldn't be ALITTLE concerned about the intents considering the history.

They should know right away not to do that because it would scare people. But they choose to do it anyway. Than they call in the ACLU thugs to support them. They are using OUR system to penetrate OUR society. Strike fear into us. Legally and socially.

They are sueing because of religious descrimination. You know what else it can be called.

Infiltration...

You send scouts in to tests the waters, test the laws, test the courts to see what you can get away with. And perfect your muslim "social shield" against Western common sense.

Now I know the old replies, but it's only a few extermists, you can't treat all muslims that way. But yes I can. Because the other world religions reign in thier crazies.

Muslim moderates fail to reign in thier crazies. Christians do. If some christian leaders start spewing garbage, the moderates clam down on them.

Why didn't a moderate muslim inform thier brothers that his practice is not apprpriate considering where you are.

It's common knowledge that non muslims are NOT allowed to fly to Mecca during December 28th because of the pilgramage. So they expect for us to obey thier rules, while forcing thier customs upon our rules?

I say enough is enough. Let us see it for what it is. It's BS plan to slowly grind down the non muslim world using our pussy non muslim courts to overrun non muslim countries.

You'd think the athiests would have been all over this one, yet I heard nothing...

(You may find this story in alot of places, I chose this one for times sake. Google "muslim plane removed")

[Blodo]

Don't tell me if you're about to fly and 6 orthodox muslims are praying at the gate of the airport before boarding, and chanting Allah is Great, that you wouldn't be ALITTLE concerned about the intents considering the history

I'm not as biased to actually be concerned when people are doing what is essentially a part of their culture. I wouldn't be afraid at all. You see the first hand problem that you are have is the general bias that you harbor against muslims and their society, completely and utterly missing the fact that terrorists don't ever bask in their traditions or religion before or during action. They don't wear traditional muslim clothes during attacks nor do they (contrary to this stupid popular belief) pray in a visible place right before it starts. Yet anybody who has anything to do with the muslim culture is branded a terrorist? Moreover - every arab is a terrorist just because. Right?

Which brings me to my next point. It's not the muslims attacking you. You are attacking them, and they do what anybody would do: defend themselves. If Iraq invaded America and subdued it with superior force, staging their tanks everywhere, placing their mosques everywhere (just like you place your corporations everywhere) and generally contaminating your culture - would you not fight back? You would. And then you would be a terrorist. People would complain about you holding your hands together to say "praise the lord". They would fear you if you did that. Then some guy would go on and tell others "The christians are invading us!". How much sense do you think he would make?

Look at it from this perspective.

[Elerium]

Yeah it's happening in Britain too, a LOT (such as some muslims wanting to get rid of Christmas). Hostile is right about what I think as well really, but the whole blame is due to Islamic Fundamentalists who started this whole crap anyway from the start by blowing up the twin towers due to religious hatred and racial hatred towards the west. If the muslims gave two pennies they would crack down on Al'queda in their own countries, but they don't usually. Many join up to this so called 'jihad' just as an excuse to 'liberate' their brothers. Yes dethroning Saddam is good on paper but the implicatures afterwards is a total mess, like what is happening at the moment. At least when he was incharge he even didn't want things to do with terrorists I think.

Al'queda attacks Bush, Bush attacks Afghanistan with Britain, somehow the focus gets shifted to Iraq, USA and UK beat Iraq, Al'queda launches terror attacks to make themselves look good on the Iraqis. Iraqis stage cultural infiltration in western countries, and in some parts allying with Al'queda.

The only way I can see this stopping is these various ways (none is higher than each other just examples):

1) Discrimination, the harshest form of how-to-stop cultural victories, basically forces them out but leaves marks in the democratic world. Countries attempt some forms of this but get slapped by the people using their own system.
2) Counter-Culture, go into the places and start setting up monasteries, burger kings, etc so you assimilate them first rather than them you.
3) Wait it out without extremism, they become a part of society, but without the scary aspects of people wanting to blow things up.
4) Treaty, hey it worked with the IRA.
5) Deport extremism and prevent influx.

Seen as though America never deals with terrorists 4) isn't an option. I don't think terrorists even would want to make peace anyway. I think rapid 5) is needed for now, with 2) taking place afterwards in our own countries, and slowly setting up 2) in the middle east countries via company loans and such to rebuild the country.

Edited by Elerium, 19 December 2006 - 08:50 PM.

[MSpencer]

Imagine, no religion.

[Hostile]

I'm not as biased to actually be concerned when people are doing what is essentially a part of their culture. I wouldn't be afraid at all. You see the first hand problem that you are have is the general bias that you harbor against muslims and their society, completely and utterly missing the fact that terrorists don't ever bask in their traditions or religion before or during action.

Maybe you're right. But I guess I was in Wash DC during 911, I saw the smoke from the Pentagon in the distant, I saw the F-16s flying overhead. So maybe I have a perspective you can't share with me. You weren't there last week when I was with friends at a bar next to a mosque (how odd) and some early 20's guy runs in and yells "who called my sister a suicide bomber!, huh who said it" It was a quiet bar and it became totally silent. No one said it. No one came in or left in recent moments.

In fact we were all dumbstruck. A bar full of rednecks went quite while he was there. We all just looked at each other like WTF? Seems the only thing that happened was some muslim girl poked her head in the door and looked around for a few seconds. Then left. I sat near the door. No one said anything to her.

We talked for some moments after the orthodox muslim cleric came in and persuaded him back out the door. Didn't make any sense to us....

And to brng back to a point. No the people on the airline were not terrorists, they chose to pray like they did. They also had seats 2 in the front, two in the middle, and two in the rear of the plane. As well as they only had one way trip tickets.

It's like they purposely tried to create a perfect storm when they knew they were innocent just to test the waters and see what happened. I just find it very peculiar how they created a perfect strom of events. Almost staged IMO.

They don't wear traditional muslim clothes during attacks nor do they (contrary to this stupid popular belief) pray in a visible place right before it starts. Yet anybody who has anything to do with the muslim culture is branded a terrorist? Moreover - every arab is a terrorist just because. Right?

The purpose was not to attack, it was to test the reactions of the airlines based on a worse case "innocent" scenerio.

Which brings me to my next point. It's not the muslims attacking you. You are attacking them, and they do what anybody would do: defend themselves. If Iraq invaded America and subdued it with superior force, staging their tanks everywhere, placing their mosques everywhere (just like you place your corporations everywhere) and generally contaminating your culture - would you not fight back? You would.

Maybe you need to review recent history abit more in depth. They attacked us many times long before Iraq, no sense making it sound like all this started with the Iraq war. All this started with 911. No one is attacking Syria, Iran, Eqypt, Sudan, Somalia, Jakarta, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and so on. Wake up mate. They don't need to be attacked to attack first.

It's not by accident. I'm just some dude on some forum. But explain why/how so many countries around the world are suffering attacks by muslims in thier own native countries. Even Brazil was attacked. What did Brazil ever do to the muslims? Yet they attacked a blew up an Israeli resort there.

Employed by brazilians of course. So Muslims don't care who they kill or where. It's not just the US or Europe. It's worldwide.

Also glad to see you behave as a typical left winger. Protect the muslims despite the OBVIOUS. It's ok, I won't hold it against you, to be blind. You're not the only left winger protecting a parsec that would slit your throat as quickly, as any other westerner.

And then you would be a terrorist. People would complain about you holding your hands together to say "praise the lord". They would fear you if you did that. Then some guy would go on and tell others "The christians are invading us!". How much sense do you think he would make?

Look at it from this perspective.

Let's try to keep this real. There is no history of Christians worldwide hyjacking or blowing up planes, you know that and so do I. By comparing the two in modern times, is like comparing apples to oranges. People can complain of course of no religious expression at all.

But I don't see athiests being as tough with the muslim extremists as I do on the local christians. "Those damn christians spreading all that gospel crap." While all those muslims are not so subtle, they immigrate, in tides, like jellyfish. And they're intent is not so upfront and benign.

While I know you want to simply think the opposite of anything I say, which is fine. Freedom of speech. But take a good long look at the long term intents of the immigrated muslims into your nation. What do you think thier goals are?

To assimilate? I very highly doubt it.

If it's not to assililate, that what are thier goals? Make alot of money to send back home to people intent on changing the world from Western control into a Islamic theocracy? One nation at a time?

Are we allowing these individuals to prosper here, send money back home, only to use that money to wage war against the nations they immigrated to?

That's called infiltration The oldest trick in the book for defeating an enemy. Which is what we are to them. Happened to the Romans and the Greeks. It's a no brainer. You assimilate people from your place into your enemies place. Than that changes the balance of power from within.

Read a book call The Games Nations Play. Quite an excellant reading if I must say. By John Spanier
http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/087187721X

[Silent_Killa]

Imagine, no religion.

Worked great in the old USSR

[duke_Qa]

this started with 911. No one is attacking Syria, Iran, Eqypt, Sudan, Somalia, Jakarta, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and so on.

i would say it started with the first gulf war. putting troops in the middle east generally makes people pissed at you. every nation has an agenda of infiltration going on. and i would say that extremism is not the one who will win in the long run.

Worked great in the old USSR

hehe, if you are implying that lack of religion was the downfall of Soviet i am inclined to laugh out loud

its a spurious relation and has no foundation in real life. religion is a poison in the modern society where communication is widespread and easy.



but this thread was not directly aimed at islamism and the likes, thats just the stuff that paranoid people would worry about. sure, wars the next hundred years will define the world culture, and if islam is on the winning side you can count on that being a problem. but i don't think that the middle east will be the major problem because its a powderkeg. its got oil and other valuable items, but its too chaotic to really unite. naturally if we let Iran make some sort of fundamentalist empire that spreads out and gains economic powers akin to other superpowers, i would be nervous.

no, i'm more nervous about China and Russia when it comes to cultural "threats" to a global culture. hell, even the USA i would consider a threat to a global culture. if technology continues to develop with the speed we got right now, it is these years that will lay the cornerstones for our push into space. if we don't have a proper philosophy on how to spread into space, we would be nothing more than a cancer upon the galaxy. barbarians more or less, and if theres anything out there that has gotten further than us and has better control over things, i bet they don't want us to go around making materialistic items of every raw material we find, spreading religions left and right and so forth.

[Hostile]

Explain why you think Russia and China will be an issue? I'm just curious....

[Silent_Killa]

hehe, if you are implying that lack of religion was the downfall of Soviet i am inclined to laugh out loud lol.gif

No, I'm asking you to look at what happened when someone tried to "remove" religion.

[MSpencer]

So we're not blaming the collapse of the Soviet Union on the lack of religion, but we're just going to say the Russian Revolution was caused by the Communist Party's required atheism?

[Silent_Killa]

Oh for christs sake, since everyone here cannot grasp even the slightest abstract point, I'll make it real simple.

The basic, overall point, is that religion isn't to blame for all the worlds ills as you claim it to be. Athiesm can be just as dangerous, the thing that causes all this death and destruction is simply belief, and the belief that your belief is correct, you see what I'm getting at?

[duke_Qa]

xplain why you think Russia and China will be an issue? I'm just curious....

basically because they got the resources and the ability to adapt to the situation. China is rapidly growing into a superpower of its own(through making cheap products for us), while russia has incredible amounts of natural resources that they already now are using to gain influence(oil and gas into europe?).

thats more worrysome than some fundamentalist country down in the middle east with an agenda. sure Kuwait and Iraq and Iran has alot of oil-fields, but the way things looks now its going to be a free for all grab and run of these resources of exterior powers, and it will most likely not help them gain much more influence than what they already have.

[Calamity_Jones]

no, i'm more nervous about China and Russia when it comes to cultural "threats" to a global culture. hell, even the USA i would consider a threat to a global culture.

Other cultures have always influenced and changed others. Us brits were bad for it when we went around invading everyone. Now the americans are spreading their baleful influence. The thing is, the culture there is paper thin. There's buildings here that are older than the USA for hecks sake! There's always going to be cultures mixing in with each other...

if technology continues to develop with the speed we got right now, it is these years that will lay the cornerstones for our push into space. if we don't have a proper philosophy on how to spread into space, we would be nothing more than a cancer upon the galaxy. barbarians more or less, and if theres anything out there that has gotten further than us and has better control over things, i bet they don't want us to go around making materialistic items of every raw material we find, spreading religions left and right and so forth.

That's probably why the covenant wanted to wipe our arses off the face of the galaxy. To be honest, I'd do it

[DemonWolf]

its a spurious relation and has no foundation in real life. religion is a poison in the modern society where communication is widespread and easy.

I don't know wether to laugh or cry at your ignorance.

Edited by DemonWolf, 24 December 2006 - 12:16 AM.

[Tom]

People need to stop looking at differences and start looking at what we have in common. If you look at differences in culture you will continuously be stuck in this cycle of paranoia and destruction. War is only a result of disagreement and gains for others who believe they are right.

Regardless, we all share responsibility for this world and its condition. What we are seeing today is no more a reflection of the total collective and combined thoughts, awareness and behaviour of humanity. Where we are going is no more a reflection of what we believe the future holds. We can only change the world when people decide they are sick of how things currently are. This is beginning to happen today, not with the "war on terror" which is no more than a fraud to dominate the middle east and its resources. If the world does not change then this shows us we are satisifed with it or we are satisifed with letting others taking the initative and being subservient to them. We cannot complain when we allowed this mess to happen. In doing so we accept a world in which differences rather than similarities are honoured and disagreements are settled by violence, conflict and war. We then accept a world in which might is right, and darwinism rules. We allow competition to rule over co-operation thus we destroy humanities real advances and evolution. This is the ignorance today. We decide to believe in "winners" and "losers." In reality there is no such thing. Everyone is a loser if they continue to exploit, manipulate and destroy each other for their own selfish gains. They think that if the system creates losers then thats unlucky as long as you are not one of them. As long as you are ok.

Most of this is based on DIFFERENCE of opinion. How many of us insist something is "wrong" basically because it's different from our own world view? There are those who exploit the least well off and then congratulate themselves on how much better off their victims are than before they were exploited. They will never consider the issue of how people as a whole should be treated regardless of "Human Rights Treaties." Instead they settle happily for making a horrible situation a little bit better with their short term profits. Short term views ignore the long term consequences. And this also affects what happens now.

Most people nowadays ridicule the idea of any other system replacing the present one simple and ignorantly believing that this is the natural way for humans to behave or is "human nature." Believing that the "inner spirit" that drives people to succeed is merely greed and selfishness rather than a collective community spirit to evolve and expand the human race.

We cannot progress anymore following this current path, it will only lead us down the black hole along the lines of "revelations" in the christian bible. It doesn't mean the bible is real, its merely just a symbolic prophecy of our own self destruction due to our ignorance and own selfish desires.

We need to stop looking at events overseas and start sorting out issues at home before we can really make a difference in this world, it all starts with the current system manipulating peoples opinions via media, the current system manipulating and controlling people by a fake economic system known as "currency" created by banks out of thin air. This money is then charged interest in pursuit of profit. There is less money in circulation today than the debt we owe to banks, making us pay for our own slavery and the creation of the "4th reich" system or the "new world order" named after the elite and rich.

I would agree duke that we are entering a new age of humanity, however whilst we focus on kicking each other out of the little boat we are all in we could miss an opportunity to make our lives better as a whole in order to progress. There are people that will exploit this ignorance and sail away in a big boat with all the power, gold, money and knowledge in which case we will be left with nothing.

Edited by Hybrid, 24 December 2006 - 02:59 AM.

[Blodo]

I don't know wether to laugh or cry at your ignorance.

Ignorance? Are you kidding? He's telling the truth. It's religion that creates most conflict, it's religion that builds ignorance and it is religion that creates total obedience and fanatism.

[DemonWolf]

I don't know wether to laugh or cry at your ignorance.

Ignorance? Are you kidding? He's telling the truth. It's religion that creates most conflict, it's religion that builds ignorance and it is religion that creates total obedience and fanatism.

Once more: I don't know wether to laugh or cry.
You are foolish to believe that religion is a 'poison'. You are arrogant to suggest that it is the cause of many of society's problems. Check back when you consider that. I believe this 'anti-religion' attitude is every bit as dangerous as religious fanaticism, because you follow your ideals to the same length. It's simple really, any thought can be twisted to evil. Without religion, people would find more things to fight over. It's just a matter of choosing your 'poison', so to speak, if that's how you view religion.

[duke_Qa]

the major difference on being anti-religion and pro-religion is that religions have tons of dogmas and rules and grudges from millenia past, while being against religion does not really provoke aggression. if the entire world was "religion, meh. i'll just move along nicely" instead of "my religion pwns yours and i'll prove it to you!!!", there would be a telltale difference.


anyway, religion is a problem these days because we got easy access to mass communications. if people had to sail for months before they came to a new mass of unbelievers they could convert, and they had to talk to every one of them to convert them, its a totally different game than getting a tv-channel up with satellites and putting up giant screens spreading the word in the streets. and since its so easy to communicate and spread the word, it requires more punch to get through to the crowds.

Religious competition so to speak. we know what happens when religions collide.