16 replies to this topic

[ihateharriers]

ok, so let's see what is going on here - we bitch out the NLs for being ineffective, paranoid, and not giving a flying fuck about anything that goes on here half the time except for the "Revoralution" or whatever it's called which, although it's been worked on since i think i joined this place almost two years ago, hasn't been completed or whatever. then, when they completely lose control of the argument against them because they have no real or effective defense half the time, they lock the topic to shut everyone up because they can't stand being bitched out and it's easier than actually doing something.

in the topic "The menace is gone", i thought Paradox had a very valid point about the disappearance of the black market. why now, after however many years, after all that trouble, did they do it? obviously paranoia was a contributor, but that was not mentioned once in that topic by and NL or anybody of the sort. Why? do you not want to admit that you did get paranoid? that it was done for rash reasons and without taking proper steps to see if it could be avoided? this is my view: the internet is the last place on earth that is still free, and forums like this are the best places for freedom because they allow for ideas to be exchanged freely and discussed with many people from different cultures than your own. piracy and the philosophy behind it is one of those ideas, and the black market was a great example of how that idea was put into practice. why give in to those who believe that profit means more than freedom? if it wasn't for the black market, i wouldn't be who i am today. why? that's where i got my first copies of photoshop and 3ds max, the tools that i use to create the art that i love. would i have found out that the graphics arts are really what i wanted to with my life if i couldn't get that software for free? the answer is no - i'm not made of money nor is anyone in my family, and i sure as hell wasn't gonna buy all that to see if it's something that i actually liked when i first started out. that is why i support piracy - it gives you the freedom to explore different things to see if they will make you a happier person, and the black market was better than maryjo's forum for that, simply because the resource pool was enormous, and these were people who could be trusted (with the ONE exception) because they had to go through the hosting process and show they were serious about what they were doing.

once again, Paradox isn't the only one who's pissed, and i do think he is right in many of his so called complaints and metaphors. personally, i think it should be Paradox, not Solinx, who's an NL because he has been around revora much longer, knows more about revora than him because he has been here longer, and clearly cares about revora more because he really wants something to get done.

Remember the "commun-i-cation" topic? it was unanimous that there was a greater need for more commnication between members and NLs. what happened with that? well let's see: i have shown great interest in becoming the new leader of the RCAlert division, and it was hinted that i might be able to get that job. i had solinx post a topic in the little god forum about it to see how my ideas were taken, and not once was i told what was going on or what they thought. i PMed him about it about a week later i believe and found out that the Gods wanted more than just ideas, they wanted someone who gonna be leader and blah blah blah, as well as that my post history showed me to be inactive for long periods of time. all of this happened and i was neglected from being told. what the hell kind of communication is that? so i PM solinx back saying that i would happy to have people helping me out and what not, as well as saying that i rarely miss a day of checking these forums. in reality, i check these forums about 2-3 times a day just so i know what's going on. the reason why my post history is scattered is because i don't just sit around here and spam the living hell out of these forums for the sake of an enormous post count to bolster an ego. the last thing i said in that PM was to keep me updated as to what's going on with all this. what happens? it's been 3 days and i have not had one PM explaining how things are going. this means that the NLs have not replied in that topic for three days, which really shows how much they care about this forum and the fact that an entire division is without any sort of leader, or that this idea of "improved communication" is not true. my thoughts? effective leadership? we wish. improved communication? improved communication my ass.

we have reason to be pissed and we have reason to demand answers. i'm sick of you bitching about us bitching and beating around the bush instead of giving us the reasons behind your actions. just becuase you're leaders doesn't mean you're immune from that - when those below you fuck up you demand answers, and therefore when those above us fuck up we demand answers as well. all of this that's been going on between the members and NLs wouldn't be happening if you gave us what we wanted. we aren't asking for you to conquer the world and give it to us - we are asking for three things: communication, action, and explantions for those actions. is that so hard? it looks like it. and if that's the case, then we should have a "Revoralution", but not the redesign and reorganization that it is - i'm talking about getting rid of the old leadership and implementing a new one. that's what happens when people feel that those who chose to lead them fail them in the real world, and i don't see why that shouldn't happen on the internet as well.

go ahead, fuck around, do nothing, beat around the bush - but don't expect me and those who belive the in the same things i do to sit here and watch you do it. the longer you pull this shit the longer you're gonna put up with my shit. don't like it? that's the way it works with me. i don't stop until you start proving to me that you are willing to make this a better place, that are willing to fix the current problems, that you are willing to admit when your wrong, and that you are willing to step down when you know that you are doing nothing to help. you wanted leadership, you got leadership, now do something with that fucking leadership - not a hard concept to figure out.

now, let's see how long it takes for this topic to get locked.

[Bart]

why, whyyy does everybody care so *** much for the *** black market topic. it's gone, and for good reason...learn to live with it

why now, after however many years, after all that trouble, did they do it?

because it shouldn't have been there in the first place. if they did something wrong in the past years, don't they have the right to correct that now? also, that guy "guy", was just the last drop to spill the bucket (or something like that )

the internet is the last place on earth that is still free, and forums like this are the best places for freedom because they allow for ideas to be exchanged freely and discussed with many people from different cultures than your own. piracy and the philosophy behind it is one of those ideas, and the black market was a great example of how that idea was put into practice.

but the server, and it's admin, are in the US, and that is not free (in the way that you mean it), and MM could lose more than his place in college if somebody discovered the black market. would you want that on your conscience, so you can download illegal programs, which you can get anywhere else?

personally, i think it should be Paradox, not Solinx, who's an NL because he has been around revora much longer, knows more about revora than him because he has been here longer, and clearly cares about revora more because he really wants something to get done.

being around for a long time..since when is that an indication of leadership? as a side not, you may not know Solinx well, but I've worked with him for a longer time, and trust me, his goal will be to improve communications here

just as illustration, let me link you to a post of Paradox, containing a completely unfounded, unnecessary, irrational, irrelevant personal attack on a completely innocent statement
http://forums.revora...&...st&p=425660

also, i agree 100% that leadership at this forum could definitely be improved, but remember: NL means Network Leader(s). does that mean they have to consult the members over every single decision

the longer you pull this shit the longer you're gonna put up with my shit. don't like it?

fine, keep throwing shit, instead of giving us constructive criticism, and suggestion solutions instead of just problems we already know about

all of this happened and i was neglected from being told.

you applied for a job, and the leaders discussed it, then told you. tell me, if you apply for a job in real life, do you get to sit there while they decide whether or not you're fit for it?

now, let's see how long it takes for this topic to get locked.

the other topic became a flame, it was locked for good reason.
let this topic be a nice, civilized discussion (that goes for all of you!) and it will not get locked

[Banshee]

Kewlstuff > Black Market.
Kewlstuff pwn Black Market.
Kewlstuff is much, much better than Black Market.



Why should we go back to Black Market if Kewlstuff does a much better job and doesn't compromise MM in any way, shape and form?

[ihateharriers]

being around for a long time..since when is that an indication of leadership? huh.gif as a side not, you may not know Solinx well, but I've worked with him for a longer time, and trust me, his goal will be to improve communications here

also, i agree 100% that leadership at this forum could definitely be improved, but remember: NL means Network Leader(s). does that mean they have to consult the members over every single decision

so far he's been doing a great job with that

fine, keep throwing shit, instead of giving us constructive criticism, and suggestion solutions instead of just problems we already know about

ummm, i'll give constructive criticism when something gets done and deserves constructive criticism. as for solutions, YOU ARE THE LEADER!!!!! if you aren't capable of coming up with solutions to problems, then why in hell are you and everyone else leading us?

you applied for a job, and the leaders discussed it, then told you. tell me, if you apply for a job in real life, do you get to sit there while they decide whether or not you're fit for it?

when you pay me to do that job i'll accept that answer. but when this comes to a forum, where people work as a team, i think that the conditions are a little different. is it so much to tell me what the problem is so i that i can at least try to explain myself so that i can help you out? it's not like there is even a leader of RCAlert right now. i am very willing to step up and fill a position that needs to be filled, and they can't allow me fill that position for reasons like scattered post history? let's be honest - if that's the only reason that i am being denied that position when there is currently no one but me willing to fill it then there are clearly some problems around this network. is it too much to let me take the chance and let me try and do my best to get the place back up on it's feet? it all comes down to nothing getting done - none of you have decided to take over RCAlert and do something with it, so why not let somebody who is willing to perform the job do that so you don't have to? tbh, i'm just a little confused about this, and would really like to know why i am not capable of doing this job, especially when nobody else is willing.

the other topic became a flame, it was locked for good reason.
let this topic be a nice, civilized discussion (that goes for all of you!) and it will not get locked

the only flame i can recall from that topic was Paradox criticizing Solinx for putting his name in every post - everything else was perfectly valid for debate but it was closed anyways. what's the explanation for that?

[Bart]

ummm, i'll give constructive criticism when something gets done and deserves constructive criticism. as for solutions, YOU ARE THE LEADER!!!!! if you aren't capable of coming up with solutions to problems, then why in hell are you and everyone else leading us?

i'm not saying that you should be the only one thinking about solutions, that job obviously lies with the leaders. i am saying that, instead of posting just problems, you could be helpful and post suggested solutions as well
let me add that I'm not leader at revora. I'm webmaster at T3A, that's my actual job

so far he's been doing a great job with that

there has been only 1 occassion for him yet where he had to communicate outside, and (in your opinion, certainly not mine) he failed. a bit soon to draw conclusions, don't you think?

the only flame i can recall from that topic was Paradox criticizing Solinx for putting his name in every post - everything else was perfectly valid for debate but it was closed anyways. what's the explanation for that?

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You answered Hostile's perfectly sensible application of sarcasm with my question.
DO NOT DO THIS. IT ANGERS ME.

An off topic but nonetheless pertinent point regarding your last post: Don't patronise me, Solinx.

Sorry, I seem to have neglected to turn on the part of my brain that gives a flying fuck. Let me get back to you when I finally get around to doing so.

Why the fuck do you do this? I KNOW what your login name is. I can SEE IT IN FRONT OF ME. Your signature's there for a reason, son. Learn to use it.

And before you go on, if you guys are allowed to act like dickheads, why aren't I?

Of course, the only reason Blaat wanted it removed is because Detail posted a couple of pr0n links in it.

[Banshee]

With this kind of behaviour, maturity and bad spelling... I guess posting history is quite a good reason to be denied from a job here.

If we did nothing, people would have fled from this place years ago, which is not the case. And, again, you don't see much done because we are helping the divisions to grow. CnC3.net for example is getting far more popular with the support that it is receiving now.

[Blodo]

Screw kewlstuff for a moment... I think me and Solinx agreed to that IHH should be given a chance to run the RCAlert division, and see what comes up out of that. So why wasn't there a vote on this, and the topic has been left on the water? Can we have a general NL vote about this? Give him a shot, see what he'll be up to. If you have a better candidate than this, then put him forward.

What you're all overlooking is that he cares. If he cares, it means there is a high chance that he'll do his job good. What's the problem?

Oh and btw:

If we did nothing, people would have fled from this place years ago, which is not the case. And, again, you don't see much done because we are helping the divisions to grow. CnC3.net for example is getting far more popular with the support that it is receiving now.

I don't think that's a very good argument right now, especially taking recent events into account

Edited by Blodo, 04 March 2007 - 12:37 AM.

[Bart]

I think me and Solinx agreed to that IHH should be given a chance to run the RCAlert division, and see what comes up out of that. So why wasn't there a vote on this, and the topic has been left on the water?

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With this kind of behaviour, maturity and bad spelling... I guess posting history is quite a good reason to be denied from a job here.

[Blodo]

Ok. Yeah. Let's not have an RCAlert leader at all instead.







Give him a crack at it. He cares. It matters. The division is hopeless in it's current state, so you can't really nitpick.

[Bart]

you have a point, but I doubt he would work well with the rest of revora

[Blodo]

Well you won't know until he gets a shot at it, will you? Worst thing that can happen is that he'll get demoted back to what he was.

[ihateharriers]

thank you for defending me on that one, blodo. i appreciate the fact that your willing to give me a chance.

and 2playgames, i worked perfectly fine with revora until all this paranoia and miscommunication and what not started to get out of hand. i have no grudges with anyone here except prime, and he's been banned in every which way possible for his actions. don't think for a second that i have a grudge or hold resentment towards you or solinx or any other NL - i just get angry when i want to get something done and someone won't let me do it for some absurd reason.

this brings me to my next point - you can't always be nice when you need something to get done. i do have a life outside of the computer, and i have learned that sometimes you need to be brash, unforgiving, and well, angry if there is a point to be made. this is not acceptable all the time, but in some cases i see nothing wrong with it. throughout my entire life i have learned that you can't be everyone's friend - you make enemies just as easily. i'm saying that i'm looking to make any enemies here at Revora, but if that's what happens, so be it. i just have to make sure that my friends can help me out when needed.

all i'm asking here is for you bear with me on this one. i'm gonna need help and there are somethings that may be out of my control but i feel that in the end, if we all work hard enough, RCAlert can be an active division that is benificial to Revora, and i want to be the one to do that. i have decided to make graphics my life, and i feel that this job would be a logical step in that progression from nobody to something i can be proud of.

[OmegaBolt]

this brings me to my next point - you can't always be nice when you need something to get done. i do have a life outside of the computer, and i have learned that sometimes you need to be brash, unforgiving, and well, angry if there is a point to be made. this is not acceptable all the time, but in some cases i see nothing wrong with it. throughout my entire life i have learned that you can't be everyone's friend - you make enemies just as easily. i'm saying that i'm looking to make any enemies here at Revora, but if that's what happens, so be it. i just have to make sure that my friends can help me out when needed.

Hear, hear!

[Solinx]

I have to keep this relatively short, as it's already past 4:00 AM

What caught my eye the most in this topic is this:

ummm, i'll give constructive criticism when something gets done and deserves constructive criticism. as for solutions, YOU ARE THE LEADER!!!!! if you aren't capable of coming up with solutions to problems, then why in hell are you and everyone else leading us?

A good leader guides his team towards the goal.

Being a leader doesn't mean having all the answers, it means guiding a team to form the answers and together solve the problems at hand.

Well you won't know until he gets a shot at it, will you? Worst thing that can happen is that he'll get demoted back to what he was.

I still think the same.

the little god forum

That little 'god forum' is for all staff+, so they can give their opinions on things, such as making you admin of RC Alert, put forward their own ideas, speak their mind about decisions, etc.

The 'god forum' is place for communication between all staff. Sadly, it's rarely used by the majority of the staff members, we are working on and also in search of additional alternatives to improve communication with all revora staff members. Setting these things up takes time.

As for keeping members posted with changes. Blodo suggested that the feedback forum could be used to post about (small) changes.

As you can notice, nothing much has changed since then yet, pertially due to the decreased activity of discussion at the staff forum. But mostly because things are still being worked on. As said in the communication topic, there will be an attempt to create a constition. That takes time.


After taking a last look:

why now, after however many years, after all that trouble, did they do it? obviously paranoia was a contributor, but that was not mentioned once in that topic by and NL or anybody of the sort. Why? do you not want to admit that you did get paranoid?

There was no paranoia, there was one person who, as was confirmed by more than one staff member, had blackmailed persons at another forum. Given this situation, in which we could not directly ban this person, the decision was made to hide the black market, so that there would be no means for him to blackmail Revora. Again, his behavior was confirmed by more than one source, making this not paranoia.

Without a doubt people will wonder why we didn't ban the guy.
First reason was that he had done nothing at Revora, nor shown any intentions to do anything.
Second reason was that he was hired as a project member by a hostee. That hostee was contacted about the history of the project he hired, but we respected his choice of promoting the guy.
Why would we do that considering our knowledge of his past? If we did ban the guy without consulting the hostee, we wouldn't have been leading, we would have been dictating.

Before someone starts to mark this as patronising:
Our reasons were asked and I simply presented them in a clear manner.

Solinx

[Rawlo]

Ok, I've been keeping my mouth shut because I don't like pissing people off if I can help it, especially if I'm likely to have to deal with them on a regular basis, but I think this has really gone on a bit to long. Firstly, the other topic was closed because paradox was acting like a moron, not because he was dissagreeing with the NLs, he was blasting mindlessly at something he didn't like for no reason other then he didn't like it, regardless of whatever reasons that were given you could tell be the way it was delivered that it was simply bile and nothing more. (meaning he completely disregarded every time we tried to explain the situation to him)

secondly, arguing this point is quite obviously a pointless exersise. There is no way anything you say at this point is going to change the fact that a black market would be very dangerous to those who own this forum.

thirdly, if you don't like the way this place is run, go somewhere else, we are all here on sufference, guests if you will. we have no rights here aside from those given to us by those who own this webspace (iirc: detail MM & Banshee, might be wrong there) If you had any delusions otherwise then get over yourself

Lastly, bitching about something is never the right way to get something done because people automatically think "he's acting like a 3 yr old having a facking tantrum, I'm gonna ignore him" I don't know where anyone got the idea that this was not the case but wherever it came from, again get over yourself.

The situation as I see it with the black market was that it was put there by one of the leaders, years down the track some jackass causes some trouble and the other leaders realize that it was a frigging ideotic idea to have it there in the first place so they remove it.

I'd like to say end of story here because thats what it should be but I don't myself have the right to do so, someone who does should, I think it's sad that people arround here can't get it through there thick heads that these people we call NLs are not gods, the are incapable of doing everything correct, sometimes they fuck up just like everyone else, and sometimes they need a kick up the ass, just like everyone else. This has already happened, now everyone get a fucking CLUE!!!

righto thats my rant, at this point I really don't care how may people that pisses off aslong as they actually read this, instead of just saying OMG he suports the NLs KILL HIM!!!

Edited by Rawlo, 04 March 2007 - 09:54 AM.

[Gamemate]

I have to say that I am more fed up with other things than the leadership, what could it be? The fricking 5 year old behaviour where the kid cries too much for not getting candy? Constant bashing of leadership and bickering about how things are run?

Go figure it is the same people not happy about things every single time. Do not bloody well say that the rest of the people is pissed off or angry, no one speaks for me but me. I am sure that more people think the same as me, how do I know that? Can´t be that I actually communicate can it?

@ ihateharriers I would not hire anyone with that attitude and I am in a position in real life where I could. But you will find that out when you try to apply to a job (irl). It is fine to have an opinion and to stand up for what you believe in, but when you blatently try make it look like it is the general opinion of other people. Well that is where you crossed the line, you can only speak for yourself do not drag other people into something unless you know that they share your opinion 100%.

You waited a week and then 3 days, wow that is too much. I guess people should resign from work, ignore school and jump right into your interests, nothing is more important. Some people are just too full of themself, did you not get enough attention at home or something, so you had to come here and get it?

About the closing of the black market discussion thread. It was a good call, I do realise that some people like beating a dead horse but this one has been dead long enough. Things were not going anywhere and when Ash/Paradox crossed the line and went into personal insults... Well if he had not lost me earlier in that thread he sure did from that point. You see, when you say that one part is solely to blame and attack it like this you won´t find much support, at least not from me. Solinx has showed more patience than anyone should expect, I would have lost it long ago and that is why he is a leader. It is the same with the other leaders, gladly we do not have an impulsive ihateharriers or Paradox there or Revora would be dead long time ago.

And yes I have gone into personal attacks, could anyone blame me? It seems to work fine for some people and to be honest, seems like it is the only thing some people listen to. I rarely lower myself to this level but if you can see how retarded I look perhaps you can spot yourself in the crowd.

Just noticed that Rawlo replied I fully agree with him, close this thread if needed as it is pointless.

[Athena]

I fully agree with the two posts above.

Topic closed upon request, as this is not leading anywhere.