18 replies to this topic

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

I am playin on easy (just to get a feel on things(bow chicka wow wow).) and every time my forces blow them out of the water for all of 5 seconds, and they retreat? Whassup with that? I know Its easy but tthis is just rediculous.

[Phoenix Rising]

Easy probably has something to do with it, but even on Hard it's not good enough.

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

Easy probably has something to do with it, but even on Hard it's not good enough.

It still does that on hard? Great Mod By the way.

[Phoenix Rising]

More often than I'd like, yeah. Something with the AI is probably using a magic number somewhere, and since the PR stats are ridiculously higher than vanilla, the AI is probably trying to compare these ships to a number that was geared towards vanilla and is just saying "Retreat!!!"

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

the AI is probably trying to compare these ships to a number that was geared towards vanilla and is just saying "Retreat!!!"

yeah.(Before I put my foot in my mouth, I'd just like to say I know nothing about modding) but it might have something to do with me using ships I have upgraded to the max, like Preator II's and Tie avenger X8's, and them still using mark one everything

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

okay. The rebels had a bulwark and a level 5 space sTaTion. I accidenTly senT 3 acTion 14 TransporTs. They reTreaTed.

[anakinskysolo]

What?! That's no longer cowardice, its just plain stupidity.

[Dalmp]

What?! That's no longer cowardice, its just plain stupidity.

I wonder if it is anything to do with the <AI_Combat_Power> assigned to projectiles? Seems logical that the AI would consider individual hardpoints in it's retreat calculation. If so, those hardpoints would be weighed in value by the projectiles they fire, I imagine. PR ships have a lot of projectiles.

A brand new ISD is intimidating. An ISD with it's guns and shield shot off, and nothing but an engine remaining is not much of a threat.

Edited by Dalmp, 30 January 2008 - 07:19 PM.

[anakinskysolo]

What?! That's no longer cowardice, its just plain stupidity.

I wonder if it is anything to do with the <AI_Combat_Power> assigned to projectiles? Seems logical that the AI would consider individual hardpoints in it's retreat calculation. If so, those hardpoints would be weighed in value by the projectiles they fire, I imagine. PR ships have a lot of projectiles.

A brand new ISD is intimidating. An ISD with it's guns and shield shot off, and nothing but an engine remaining is not much of a threat.

Yeah, maybe, but how do you explain that they reatreated when being attacked by 3 Action IV Transports? No missile launchers, and no weapons at all!

Edited by anakinskysolo, 31 January 2008 - 04:48 AM.

[Dalmp]

Yeah, maybe, but how do you explain that they reatreated when being attacked by 3 Action IV Transports? No missile launchers, and no weapons at all!

Well, I don't pretend to fully understand the retreat functions (found in OffensiveSpaceEquations.lua). But keep in mind that there's more than a few reasons why the Ai will retreat. For instance, it retreats if too many of it's available ships are transports, rather than take the risk of losing them even vs a weaker opponent. I don't know if that was the case in his example or not.

Anyway, on a hunch I checked out some of the vanilla ships. I took the number of pulses per gun and multiplied that by the projectile's combat power, then divided by it's recharge rate, to find the combat power output per second, in projectiles.
I then added any fighters/bombers (if any) at their combat power * # per squad * number of squads per ship.

the vanilla Mon Calamari, rated at 4250 combat power by it's ship file:
Total = 4571 combat power per second in projectiles. 7.5%ish more than the combat power found in the ship file.

Nebulon B (2200): Total combat power in projectiles per second: 2229 (just over 1% more)
Assault Frig (2500): Total cp/s 2457 (2% less)
Acclamator (2500): Total cp/s 1670. + 975 in fighter/bomber compliment = 2645. (6%ish)

These values are too consistently similar to be insignificant.

But let's compare to the PR Bulwark II, just for kicks.
Bulwark (30000): Total 77048 projectile combat_power/sec + 6840 fighter/bomber = 83888
It's nearly 3 times as powerful as it's ship file's combat power.


I'm going to give this theory an in-game test and get back to this thread. I think I have an idea on how I might see if it's valid or not.

Edited by Dalmp, 31 January 2008 - 08:05 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

Anyway, on a hunch I checked out some of the vanilla ships. I took the number of pulses per gun and multiplied that by the projectile's combat power, then divided by it's recharge rate, to find the combat power output per second, in projectiles.

Fascinating. I had figured that the retreating was somehow caused by my ships being greatly more powerful than vanilla, but I never really understood <AI_Combat_Power>; it didn't make sense for it to be on both ships and projectiles. But I think you're right. The differences can be explained by things that PG forgot to update as they tweaked values, which I've noticed in other cases. I'll start by assigning projectiles non-arbitrary values and wait for your confirmation.

[Dalmp]

Sorry for the delay. Ok, it's nothing to do with projectiles. That little theory was a dead end, once tested. As far as retreating is concerned, those values are fine when arbitrary. But if you have to get your theory shot down, do it yourself I always say hehe.

To sum up my findings:

• AI_Combat_Power in the ship's file is what determines retreat - for both sides.
• Projectile combat power does not matter (with respect to retreating, at least).
• Ships in the reserve box are not considered for the retreat calculation.
• Starbases are causing the retreat problem in some way.

I'm not done hunting this down, and have a a bit of a new theory on this. The only times there is difficulty with the AI retreating is when starbases are present. The rest of the time it's rather well balanced. And the bigger the starbase, the more likely the enemy is to retreat.

(Edited to take out a lot of spam that is no longer important)

Edited by Dalmp, 03 February 2008 - 06:13 AM.

[Dane Kiet]

That is REALLY odd about the star bases. The first part is just preception equations and makes sense. But the star bases leave me baffled. I would really like to hear your theory, i'll try to develope one on my own, and see where we intersect.

[Dalmp]

That is REALLY odd about the star bases. The first part is just preception equations and makes sense. But the star bases leave me baffled. I would really like to hear your theory, i'll try to develope one on my own, and see where we intersect.

Makes sense, yeah. My real goal was to prove my pet theory wrong, and it seems it was. But we're going to get this problem figured out one way or another haha.

But for some reason the AI is counting a level 5 starbase as a better reason to retreat than a level 1, or no starbase at all. That's just weird alright. And it's nothing to do with the starbase's Combat_power. It's something else.

Edited by Dalmp, 02 February 2008 - 11:13 AM.

[Dalmp]

Problem located.

I had earlier dismissed transports as the problem, as I hadn't added any to the fleet. But it turns out that the starbases spawn them by the dozen. CT-11 utility tugs are labeled as transports. And a level 5 starbase spawns 5 squads of 12 tugs each - 60 transports on the map!

So what's happening is the AI is triggering it's 'save the transports' behavior in the retreat function in OffensiveSpaceEquations.lua. So yes, it would retreat from 3 action IV's with a level 5 starbase and a Bulwark.

To MacGuyver it edit SpaceUnitsUtilities_CT-11_Space_Tug.xml

<CategoryMask> Transport </CategoryMask>

change it to:

<CategoryMask> fighter </CategoryMask>

In the long run I suppose a new CategoryMask called 'Tug' or something could be made, and reflect it in PGAICommands.lua, SpaceUnitTargetingPriorities.xml, or whichever files it is reflected in. But too much work for me atm, and I'm not sure if I know where all the files are that would have to be edited..

I tested a few times with different forces. It works. No more stupid retreating.

Edited by Dalmp, 03 February 2008 - 08:28 AM.

[Phoenix Rising]

Haha. The irony is that tugs don't even have a hyperdrive .

I'll get to fixing that for the next version. I also replied to you in the other thread about this problem.

I did change the combat power for projectiles and it did seem to help somewhat with tactical taskforce grouping, but it's really hard to tell for sure. No one change is drastic enough to "fix" the AI, but until we know what that tag really means, it is safer to use scaled values instead of just the vanilla ones like I was. I think your formula is too accurate to be coincidence, even if it has little affect on retreating, at least compared to the tugs.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 08 February 2008 - 11:23 AM.

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

Haha. The irony is that tugs don't even have a hyperdrive .

I'll get to fixing that for the next version. I also replied to you in the other thread about this problem.

I did change the combat power for projectiles and it did seem to help somewhat with tactical taskforce grouping, but it's really hard to tell for sure. No one change is drastic enough to "fix" the AI, but until we know what that tag really means, it is safer to use scaled values instead of just the vanilla ones like I was. I think your formula is too accurate to be coincidence, even if it has little affect on retreating, at least compared to the tugs.

I would do All this stuff ya'll are talking about, but unfortunately I haven't the first clue about game design. I'll just wait for the fix in 1.1
And I am also glad that the source of my frustration is a sort of "pet theory" for others

[RICON]

I would love to help with decifering the code but im stuck (refer to my topic in the Bug section: Downloading Delema)

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

[quote name='RICON' date='Feb 24 2008, 02:08 PM' post='573331']
but im stuck (refer to my topic in the Bug section: Downloading Delema)
[/quote/]I feel ya. i just bought a new computer, so i had to reinstall everything (inclding FOC and PR) and now the AI won't work. so now I'ma go find the dead AI forums in here
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