75 replies to this topic

[dreddnott]

Yup, that's the sad truth. The AI gets vehicles stuck pretty bad on certain maps. Orks and IG in particular. Mountain Trail is actually one of the better ones...

Edited by dreddnott, 18 April 2008 - 09:28 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

Well Larkin, that's kind of a bummer that placement around an HQ is hardcoded, because playing as Tau I can actually put my factories one or two HQ diamaters away from the HQ instead of right next to it. I was hoping the AI could be made to do the same. I didn't know that it was all hardcoded and completely out of Arkhan's control.

Oh well, I guess it argues the case for putting the Tank Factory around a listening post instead of next to the HQ -- if the thing won't give you vanilla ice cream then take chocolate ice cream instead, and get even.

--

Yes, Mountain Trail is one of the better ones. There are some maps out there that I simply refuse to play, because even ordinary troops and builders will get landlocked on those maps; and then you want your AI ally to lose just so it can get some of its units out and into play.

There have been times when I have wished that I could select the building of an AI ally or one of their troops or tanks, and just simply press the 'Delete' button and have it destroyed -- the hope being that it would then choose to build someplace else.

[thudo]

repeatable glitch on Mountain Trail -- fixed positions and position #2, iirc. The Tau AI ally builds its factory too close to its stronghold; and the games I have observed so far, there are always two or three Tau tanks stuck between the factory and the stronghold for the remainder of the game. And, the Tau only get to use those tanks if the Tau lose; and the Tau AI ally is one of those rare AI allies that tend to stand and hold.

Yeaaa there are some bad Startpoints on some maps but hell.. back in the old days it was MUCH worse with building placement issues. Esshhh... be lucky its so much more enhanced.

[ThetaOrion]

I stumbled upon the main 3.0 AI Mod announcement in the Main DoW Section:

http://forums.relicn...756#post2953756

http://forums.relicn...p...age=1&pp=15

I mention it here, because there are lots of ordinary people, who don't even know about the AI Mod thread, who are reporting bugs and glitches there in that Main DoW thread.

I don't know if anyone wants to steer the people here, but there's a couple of bugs mentioned that I don't know if I have experienced yet.

That thread appears to be live and well -- and Larkin and Arkhan might be able to harvest some ideas for 3.1 from that thread? I thought I should mention it.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 19 April 2008 - 02:19 AM.

[npr]

SM scouts in SS cost 45 req to reinforce, while scouts in your AI mod cost 50 req to reinforce. The squad costs are the same (100 req)

[thudo]

Our mod doesn't change the cost of thing, npr.. we don't even touch the actual game code, only work ontop of it.

However..

I did notice our costing of a starting Scout squad is wrong and should actually be:

{ 1, 100, 0, 0, 1,	"Unit",		"space_marine_squad_scout" },

Ours is 90,0 but the actual is 100,0

[npr]

Okay, I swear I saw 50 req reinforce scouts... it was on online on the tiboraxx map. If the bug happens again, I'll let you know

[RobertW7928]

I have noticed when your commander hits level 8 an 9 there hp is filled regardless if there about to die.

[RobertW7928]

Also hero's don't seem to work on Strongholds in the campaign I have only tested it on IG HQ but it might or might not affect all, some Campaign units such as honor guards and the commander for DE and Sisters aren't working.

Edited by RobertW7928, 22 April 2008 - 08:21 AM.

[thudo]

One thing I have noticed - when Eldar Bonesinger Builders teleport to an area to begin building an LP on a captured strat the AI teleports the builder to the LP but then immediately withdraws it. This is done up to 3-4 times sometimes with different builders until eventually the 3-4th one moves to build the LP. Is there any way to resolve this? Its easy to reproduce quickly.

[Smokeskin]

No true

Edited by Smokeskin, 23 April 2008 - 04:18 PM.

[LarkinVB]

Nah. The end is fine and closing

local squad_filter = function( squad_ai )

[Smokeskin]

Nah. The end is fine and closing

local squad_filter = function( squad_ai )

Yeah, I just found out, notepad++ just doesn't recognize that, so it says it is unclosed.

[LarkinVB]

One thing I have noticed - when Eldar Bonesinger Builders teleport to an area to begin building an LP on a captured strat the AI teleports the builder to the LP but then immediately withdraws it. This is done up to 3-4 times sometimes with different builders until eventually the 3-4th one moves to build the LP. Is there any way to resolve this? Its easy to reproduce quickly.

Perhaps the teleporting builder might be just a supporting secondary builder whereas the original builder selected by build code is on its way walking from elsewhere ?

I can confirm that there is a problem with this.

[LarkinVB]

Nah. The end is fine and closing

local squad_filter = function( squad_ai )

Yeah, I just found out, notepad++ just doesn't recognize that, so it says it is unclosed.

My notepad++ says it's fine.

[dreddnott]

I noticed the Bonesinger teleport issue about a billion times while testing the FoF code, you'd think I would have mentioned it, but no...had my head in the clouds so to speak. No idea how you could go about fixing it either. :/

[ThetaOrion]

Another thing or two that I have started to notice now:

The Chaos AI enemy doesn't build a secondary base or a second Stronghold. You wipe out their first base, and the Chaos are simply gone. Most of the rest of the factions, if you wipe out their main base, they have another one someplace. And, Chaos builders actually seem to rush your tanks and soldiers. I don't know what they are doing. Instead of retreating, the Chaos builders come at you sometimes, if they are standing around doing nothing.

Tau and Necron AI allies seem to be the best and fastest at building a Second Stronghold or Monolith in my base. The Necron AI enemies are actually really hard to wipe out because they build everywhere it seems. The Necron AI enemy always have a secondary base in the enemy AI base nearest me when I get there.

But, if I pick a SM AI ally, the SM AI ally doesn't seem to build a second Stronghold in my base, even if they are lucky enough to get to Tier 4.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone here can look at the code and tell why some factions build secondary bases and others don't -- don't know if it's hard-coded or something that can be changed and improved. Still, sometimes those Chaos AI enemies are so hard to beat that I'm kind of glad that they didn't build a secondary base.

But, I would have liked my SM AI ally to have been a bit more agressive about spreading out and doing things. In fact, many of my AI allies, if there is a decapped strategic point in my area, they will quickly come and take it; but the SM AI ally doesn't even seem to know that it's there. You don't seem to have to worry about your SM AI ally stealing your strategic points. I thought that was kind of unique, also.

Thud keeps saying that it's the same code, but not every faction does the same thing with the same code. I have no idea why Chaos or SM won't build a secondary base (or is very slow to) while others are very quick to do so, with the very same code. And, I have no idea why the SM are polite AI allies and don't take my strategic points while everyone else who is an AI ally seems to do so, with the very same code.

--

It's kind of good to see in this thread that you have maybe found ways to improve the Eldar AI -- the Eldar AI ally seems to be the worst AI ally, followed by the SM. I don't know what's wrong with the SM, but I don't seem to see the SM AI ally building any turrets, certainly not early in the game like Chaos and Necrons and others do. It's almost as if the SM have a resource problem. Outside of the sparsness of their base with no turrets and stuff, I have a hard time figuring out why the SM AI ally seems to always let me down.

--

The Orks are an enigma -- sometimes they are brutal and everywhere as an AI enemy, and sometimes they simply fold up and do nothing. You never know which one you are going to get. It's different every time.

--

Anyway, it's nothing that makes the thing unplayable -- in fact, I'm getting kind of used to the little glitches and learning to take advantage of them. Some matchups have been hard to get the win as the IG, so I sometimes do a straight tech-rush to Baneblade and then drive my Baneblade into enemy territory for the win. Sometimes, like with the Eldar, I have to take the enemy Relic, and pour everything I have into holding that enemy Relic, and then the enemy just throws one or two tanks or troops at a time at me, because they are totally fixated on retaking their Relic, and then I can sometimes get the win against Chaos as Eldar that way -- especially if I have all my troops, tanks, and turrets, around the enemy Relic, they won't do anything else until they retake their Relic. After six straight losses with one matchup or another, repeating the same scenario, you eventually find the trick that gives you the win if you keep at it long enough; and the wonderful thing is that the winning tactic is different every time!

It's good stuff!

Thank you!

[ThetaOrion]

Oh, another minor thing or two that I have started to question, and keep forgetting to mention:

I don't ever remember seeing or hearing the Ork AI make a Mad Dok.

--

I also have started to wonder if the SM AI is making and attaching Apothecaries.

I'm pretty much sure that the Ork AI isn't making and attaching Mad Doks, but the Apothecaries are silent, so there's no audible confirmation there, and I have started recently trying to search my brain for memories of Apothecaries from the AI.

I don't know with the AI if it is possible to fully re-enforce a SM squad and then attach an Apothecary, and then put the combo into the Orbital Relay for deep-striking -- that's what the humans often do. I sometimes also like to max out a Termie squad, attach a Chaplain, and then load the whole pile as one into the Orbital Relay. That's a nasty package to drop into the middle of someone's base.

Anyway, it might be possible for da stupid humie to do a few more things with the SM than the AI can, but if you can do a few more nasty tricks with the SM AI, through attaching and deep-striking, I do get the feeling that the SM AI could safely absorb the improvements in SoulStorm without making the SM overpowered.

The SM is one of those that is rather disappointing as an AI ally, yet as an AI enemy, the SM AI seemed to do me in from time to time if I let them get going. I figured that if they did a bit more deep-striking under AI control, that would make them even better.

Still, for me, the easiest AI enemy for me to beat on average seems to be the Eldar. If I see the Eldar out there, I tend to relax, because I know that I'm going to murderate them. Even I have a hard time winning as the Eldar, but that's one faction where I get the feeling that I do slightly better with them than the AI does -- the SM is turning out to be the other faction that I seem to on average play better than the AI does. I also do well as the Necrons, but I'm not always sure if I do better with the Necrons than the AI does. There are times when the AI does really well with the Necrons, too.

[ThetaOrion]

Okay, in one of today's games and in one of yesterday's games, the scarabs of the Necron AI ally refused to come and help me build my stuff. With the other factions, you can plop down a building inside the AI ally's base next to their stronghold (like in order to keep the Tau from building too close to their Stronghold) and the AI ally will simply finish building it at some point, but not the Necrons. Sometimes long after, they will come, but only around their Monolith. Anywhere else, and the Necron scarabs refuse to help. It's kind of cool to have your AI ally build 1/3rd of your buildings -- that trick works really well when you are the IG.

Today, there were a couple of scarab builders, 2X3, just pacing back and forth there around the listening post I captured and set up, as if they were expecting me to abandon it, and while I build things around that post, they just paced back and forth doing nothing. They didn't go scout or anything, just paced back and forth, as if they were anchored to the listening post I had created.

And, I'm sure that nobody remembers it when I mentioned that the Eldar did it, but today, when my Necron AI ally finished off the Sisters, the Necrons just stood there frozen with that pacing thing going on. They refused to capture any of the nearby empty strategic points, and they refused to come across the river to help. The Necron AI ally just stood there while I took on and finished off the Orks by myself. It was as if wiping out the enemy somehow froze them all into place so that all they could do is stand there and shuffle their feet.

So, now that's the second time when I have seen a whole AI ally army just frozen into place after taking down an AI enemy. It's very rare. I'm guessing that I'm approaching 150 games with the 3.0 AI Skirmish Mod, and I have only see the whole AI ally army stuck standing there (after taking out an enemy) twice now. It's like if you get the whole AI ally army there together as a group, and then take out the enemy or finish the AI enemy, then that AI ally army is simply stuck there until the end of the game. It's kind of an interesting glitch.

Of course, I had what I needed to take down the Orks, so it was no real problem to take them down alone. After about a hundred losses or so, I think I'm starting to get better at dealing with some of these things. A number of my wins are rather decisive.

EDIT: Trying to edit some of the confusion out of it!

Edited by ThetaOrion, 27 April 2008 - 01:55 AM.

[Smokeskin]

I have identified some of the reasons why units are moving around back and forth instead of standing and fighting.

One problem is DefendChokePoint. It will repeatedly switch chokepoints with very short intervals, which sends units running back and forth, even while under fire. That is a problem in itself, that it gets stuck at "indecision points" like that - I think the algorithms even has a tendency to have these points act like attractors.

In the tactic files, BeginHoldState will do a move (not attackmove) if further than 60 away from the destination. This very often leads to units moving to hold a position, and actually being in range of the enemy units they're supposed to be fighting, but just running past them while getting gunned down, instead of just fighting them immediatedly. A check to see if enemies in range are in range of the destination, and if they are then do an attack move instead, might be the solution.
This issue becomes even worse when you take into account that the logic deciding on chokepoints to defend and such continously flips back and forth, so the units always finds themselves moving back and forth between points they'll never get close to.

I've been trying to do a few fixes for it, but they all seem to cause other problems, mainly that units get suicidal. My guess is that either I haven't really understood how the strategies and plans work together, or the unintentional effects of the code that handles defend plans/strategies and hold states that makes units move instead of fight and loses fights for no reason, has also masked that the retreat code isn't working properly, so fixing defend and hold code will require a fix to retreat code too.

I can't stress enough how big a problem this is. In almost every fight I see AI units running around like headless chickens, reducing their efficiency drastically, and they are in BeginHoldState when they're doing it, often switcing their destinations every few seconds. Most AI vs AI fights seem to be decided by what side first gets hit by this code while the other doesn't.

Unfortunately, while having tracked down the problem, I'm not yet fluent enough in the code to fix it properly.

I think the problems with random running around under long range fire is a similar but different issue, I haven't tested that one yet.