38 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

If nothing unusual happens, than this should be the last beta.

3.10b4 Changes:
- Necrons LP upgrades reduced to 50 % in T1. They upgrade the rest after T3 upgrade was started
- Melee units don't approach units they can't see, except the infiltrators are attacking

3.10b5 Changes:
- Fixed Heroes Scar bug where after 30mins multiplayer games would de-sync

[thudo]

Sending up tonight for testing -- had a bad case of the stomach bug last nite.. oh man.. last week was lower back, now sicky. :(

[dark40k]

I am beta testing a map with skirmish 3.0 and there is a sync problem with the Heroes virctory condition for multiplayer. I think it is the same sync error as the one Ira has reported today in the forum.

I have checked with beta3 and it looks like it should still occur. I don't know for beta4

The problem is with heroes_manager.scar that calls Cpu_IsCpuPlayer(). This function is not working properly in multiplayer and returns different results to each computer. The problem is that only the computer that hosts the AI knows that it is an AI. For the other computers, it is a human player.

I have looked at the code and it will generate a sync error after 30min when a unit is created by the AI : only the computer hosting the AI will have its units starting rank upgraded. This will only apply to Harder and Insane levels.

The only workaround I can think of would be to remove the upgrade when there are more than two human players in the game.

Edited by dark40k, 18 November 2008 - 08:18 PM.

[thudo]

K latest build is up for the testers. Also found out I had food poising based on a bad pineapple on Sunday at my cousins. Took 24hrs to manifest itself. Half the people had bad experiences too except likely not my wife. Yep: gotta watch expired fruit.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Very interesting. I wonder that this never came up until now. A very good observation. The good thing is that the Cpu_IsCpuPlayer function is pretty much only used for a special feature which allows higher difficulty AI's to start with more XP after some time. I will remove that feature now. It isn't so important anyway.


@Thudo
Get better soon, and be carefull what you are eating in future ;-). Had something similar with mushrooms earlier this year.

[Inquisitor]

Great job, all. I just had a quick skirmish and there's a significant difference in Necron LP upgrading and it seems much more reasonable now. Btw, is there any way to check for decayed gens and delete them? One AI Necron player went from >160 to <100 on this account alone!

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Btw, is there any way to check for decayed gens and delete them?

We can't delete buildings. BTW, what the heck is a decayed generator?!?

[Inquisitor]

Btw, is there any way to check for decayed gens and delete them?

We can't delete buildings. BTW, what the heck is a decayed generator?!?

(!) Generators decay and need to be deleted and rebuilt in games >15 min. Been like that for Necron since DC. In SS it's like that for all races. Little red lights on the gens tell when they're decayed (and the log messages on the right).

[Zenoth]

Btw, is there any way to check for decayed gens and delete them?

We can't delete buildings. BTW, what the heck is a decayed generator?!?

(!) Generators decay and need to be deleted and rebuilt in games >15 min. Been like that for Necron since DC. In SS it's like that for all races. Little red lights on the gens tell when they're decayed (and the log messages on the right).

Sadly, if buildings cannot be deleted we'll have to deal with it. But it's still a very good observation, I must admit that I never thought about it at all, and during game-play I barely think about it.

[thudo]

Yer joking.. since when do any of my games ever run out of power? Vanilla DoW always have power excess and never enough requisition. I wish we could delete decayed LPs and rebuild em for more req exploitation. But nope: AI can never delete buildings -- not supported in the hardcode.

[thudo]

**Update** -- Arkhan fixed the Heroes Scar bug so now its ready for testing. Grab new build when possible.

TESTERS -- PLEASE test this in a multiplayer scenario to ABSOLUTELY ENSURE its not reproducible.

[Inquisitor]

Good job, all! I will not have time for any mp tests the next few days as I'm booked IRL. Sorry guys!

... Vanilla DoW ...

The last time I looked, this mod was for SoulStorm?

Regarding power decay (has been in the game since DC): Reading the wiki about any generator for any race: "Do not build Plasma Generators in preference to Thermo Plasma Generators because Thermo Plasma Generators do not decay."

I would say that going from 160+ to 98+ has a profound effect on the AI ability when power is the only resource used (i.e. for Necrons). But I guess the discussion is moot, since we apparently can't delete buildings.

[thudo]

Many people consider the Necron economy to be massively unfair -- they can hide their generators on many parts of the map unlike all others that rely on LPs for requisition which is brutally exposed to threats. I'd call that a major economy plus if I can keep my main income generation away from the battle, no?

Anyway, all this is moot: vanilla DoW/WA/DC/SS always has most games where I have like 10,050 Power and c**k-a*s sh*t for Requisition near the end of a session.

[Inquisitor]

Anyway, all this is moot: vanilla DoW/WA/DC/SS always has most games where I have like 10,050 Power and c**k-a*s sh*t for Requisition near the end of a session.

Maybe try playing the unfair and imba Necrons then?

[thudo]

Necrons have always been a little IMBA since DC. Once they hit Tier3 its massive fail time for the enemy.

[Pseudonymn]

Necrons have always been a little IMBA since DC. Once they hit Tier3 its massive fail time for the enemy.

Actually, that may not be entirely correct. There's been some discussion on this topic over at reclicnews' "Soulstorm Multiplayer Balance Issues" forums and there appears to be general agreement that the Necron T3-T4 army is not where it should be, specifically where NWs are concerned. Anecdotally, there was also some discussion regarding their economy weakening through those tiers due to gen decay, but most feel that it's a minor issue and balanced against the fact that gens decay for all races and can be rebuilt, potentially restoring the Necronomy to full power - a feat not possible for Req-based economies. The main concern expressed in that discussion, however, has been the poor showing NWs put forth in late-tier games where their slow speed combined with poor range (inadequate buffs from DF 1&2 researches at the SC) contributes to their being melted away before being able to leverage any significant DPS. Necrons are currently felt to be a bottom-tier race in competitive circles.

I know that balance issues are not your guys' mandate, but it does make for interesting discussion. Come check it out if you haven't already.

[Edit] Oh, and great to hear you guys are making such great progress with the mod. I can't wait to fire it up!

Edited by Pseudonymn, 19 November 2008 - 09:29 PM.

[thudo]

Well we cannot debate Necron balance changes unless Relic is willing to listen then NOT f**k the expansion up. They took almost 6+ months for a hotfix and still managed to have to re-release a hotfix for that too within days. Talk about shoody and unpro. No bloody wonder Blizzard completely owns em up the arse in every facet of PC game making.

[Inquisitor]

Anecdotally, there was also some discussion regarding their economy weakening through those tiers due to gen decay, but most feel that it's a minor issue and balanced against the fact that gens decay for all races and can be rebuilt, potentially restoring the Necronomy to full power - a feat not possible for Req-based economies.

Why isn't it possible for req based economies? They can rebuild the LPs and it doesn't really make sense to say so because it's about controlling the points. If you're losing the map, you're losing the game - it doesn't matter what race you are. Necrons will not be able to field a full force and their build times increases and the enemy will gain more req to build troops. Do the math.

A whole other matter is that it isn't possible for the AI to rebuild gens (a game mechanic new to this board, unfortunately). This hits the Necrons very hard compared to the other races. Try watching the Necron AI in action: It very seldom has the pow to field a full (or even half full) vehicle cap even in prolonged games and when it's winning.

Necrons are currently felt to be a bottom-tier race in competitive circles.

Thank you for supporting me on this! I guess that some people need to 'get out' more around here...

@thudo: Please remember that this discussion is not about whether the AI plays bad or good. It plays good. Could it play better? Probably. Would we be here if it couldn't play any better? Probably not.

[thudo]

A whole other matter is that it isn't possible for the AI to rebuild gens (a game mechanic new to this board, unfortunately). This hits the Necrons very hard compared to the other races. Try watching the Necron AI in action: It very seldom has the pow to field a full (or even half full) vehicle cap even in prolonged games and when it's winning.

Oh thats irony considering I watch the Necron AI, oh, 10,000x more then all of you combined because I enjoy it immensely. I so VERY seldom see our Necron AI ever failing even against the SM and have far more people complain how stupidly hard it is even on Standard. Granted, Necrons were far better in DC and are now tamed. And DUUHHH to Necrons falling to bottom tiers of competitive play: DoW has bloody !! 9 !! vanilla factions to choose from whereas all other PC RTS max out at 3.. 4 if yours lucky with an expansion. Further, Necron assets are tied into the single structure, the Monolith, so forward expansions are more challenging but their economy rocks (just pack away them generators).

If anything, the Necron game style is damn cool and a huge departure from all the other factions but yep.. they can get shafted because they literally put everything in a closed up basket.

[Pseudonymn]

Why isn't it possible for req based economies? They can rebuild the LPs and it doesn't really make sense to say so because it's about controlling the points. If you're losing the map, you're losing the game - it doesn't matter what race you are. Necrons will not be able to field a full force and their build times increases and the enemy will gain more req to build troops. Do the math.

Because building a new LP doesn't refresh the decayed Strategic Point/Relic underneath, which is the basis for the requisition rates they provide. In order to refresh that point, it needs to be decapped. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of a situation wherein someone with a decayed SP invited his enemies over to decap it for him, in the hopes of refreshing the req rate, and had it turn out the better for him.

Necrons, however, can refresh their entire economy by deleting decayed generators in exchange for newly rebuilt ones. It sounds costly, and it is initially, but the new generators will pay for themselves over the long term at +10 vs. keeping decayed gens that idle at +4 and building additional generators that are both more expensive to produce and take longer to complete. The other advantage, as Thudo pointed out, is that the Necrons can spread the new generators around better than when the game first started.

Anyway, I don't mean to derail this topic, so I'll leave it at that. Further discussion can be found in the link that I posted in my previous comments.

Edited by Pseudonymn, 20 November 2008 - 01:31 AM.