19 replies to this topic

[GamerX0078]

i havent dowloaded many mods yet but when i was playing bfme2 i found something really annoying. The walls are weak and could be even taken down by infantry. plus you cant put anyone on the walls. in bfme1 the walls were more amazing they were strong and plus you could even put soldiers on top. so please do some thing about this so it could be more realistic and sieges could be more fun

[Gfire]

I agree. Structures should all be a good deal stronger. You should really need siege weapons to take down walls. I don't think the walls should be quite as big as those in BFME1, but maybe still with enough room to walk around on... I don't know about pathing, though. They might have to be as wide as Rohan BFME1 walls, or something... And you could still have expansions like Catapult, Tower, Gate, Postern Gate, and maybe a Ramp expansion, too, to get onto the wall.

But they'd have to be more expensive and take longer to build, I think. Not sure how the hubs would work, to walk on them, but whatever.

[The 10th Rider]

Not necessarily for all factions however, vikings could have weak wood walls, while a faction like the Mongolians could even have no walls at all. But for some factions it's a good idea. It'd definitely add uniqueness to the factions.

Edited by The 10th Rider, 21 June 2009 - 06:47 PM.

[Taralom]

Well, you've got a problem with the greeks there. Each city state was different, and thus you cannot give them a wall, without neglecting the Spartan ways of life, for instance.

[Crusard]

Yeah walls in the latest official patches are plain useless.

It would be cool to have walkable buildable walls in the mod. Nobody has ever done that before, it would be cool

Well, you've got a problem with the greeks there. Each city state was different, and thus you cannot give them a wall, without neglecting the Spartan ways of life, for instance.

Not sure what you mean

[Taralom]

Well, this is the Community project forum, so this is a suggestion for the community mod, so that's cleared up first

Each city state of Greece was different in ways of tradition and methods of warfare. The Athenians dominated the seas, while the Spartans dominated the land. But we're taking them as one faction, a union of city states. It's like what happened when Xerxes invaded Greece (A.k.a. battle of Thermopylae, battle for Plataeae, battle at Salamis). The Greeks suddenly became a league against the Persians and efficiently defeated them.
Yet, the differences between Sparta and Athens are huge. Athens was a democracy for instance, while the spartans despised such way of ruling. Sparta was a bond of villages clinging together and thus forming a polis. Because of this, they had no walls and they decided that the chests of men were their walls. Athens on the other hand, fortified a large piece of land during the wars with Sparta, knowing that the distance between Athens and it's harbour Piraeus was too great and thus disadvantageous. Sparta would never do such a thing.

So, to make a long story short: You have to decide which city-state you prefer, in order to decide what characteristics you're going to give the Greeks in this mod.



*Looks around for applause, but leaves disappointed when nothing happens*

[GamerX0078]

I agree. Structures should all be a good deal stronger. You should really need siege weapons to take down walls. I don't think the walls should be quite as big as those in BFME1, but maybe still with enough room to walk around on... I don't know about pathing, though. They might have to be as wide as Rohan BFME1 walls, or something... And you could still have expansions like Catapult, Tower, Gate, Postern Gate, and maybe a Ramp expansion, too, to get onto the wall.

But they'd have to be more expensive and take longer to build, I think. Not sure how the hubs would work, to walk on them, but whatever.

yah the rohan walls were the best you could put banners up and some other stuff all factions should have different signature things to put on there walls so it would be way fun to build your own fort with more "antisiegable walls" Plus its ridicoulos (sp?) how you dont even need ladders or siege towers because you could more easily take them down

[GamerX0078]

Well, this is the Community project forum, so this is a suggestion for the community mod, so that's cleared up first

Each city state of Greece was different in ways of tradition and methods of warfare. The Athenians dominated the seas, while the Spartans dominated the land. But we're taking them as one faction, a union of city states. It's like what happened when Xerxes invaded Greece (A.k.a. battle of Thermopylae, battle for Plataeae, battle at Salamis). The Greeks suddenly became a league against the Persians and efficiently defeated them.
Yet, the differences between Sparta and Athens are huge. Athens was a democracy for instance, while the spartans despised such way of ruling. Sparta was a bond of villages clinging together and thus forming a polis. Because of this, they had no walls and they decided that the chests of men were their walls. Athens on the other hand, fortified a large piece of land during the wars with Sparta, knowing that the distance between Athens and it's harbour Piraeus was too great and thus disadvantageous. Sparta would never do such a thing.

So, to make a long story short: You have to decide which city-state you prefer, in order to decide what characteristics you're going to give the Greeks in this mod.



*Looks around for applause, but leaves disappointed when nothing happens*

yah thats an good idea and it would also be really cool if you could even possibly dig moats. thats just an suggestion

[Gfire]

You said we are combining the city-states. Then, wouldn't it be acceptable just to throw in some Athens-style walls, and let the player decide to use them or not.

Vikings could just use palisades and whatnot.

[Taralom]

You said we are combining the city-states. Then, wouldn't it be acceptable just to throw in some Athens-style walls, and let the player decide to use them or not.

you missed the point, but that's okay. You see, the City-states did not become one single "faction", but they became a dozen of allies, all working together to defeat the Persians. But if you'd throw in walls, you'd go all agains the Spartan way of life, which was without walls

I've given it some thoughts in the mean time.
There was a system of Gods, right? With choices between them? In the Greek Faction, you could put a God together with a city state, so you'd be able to train Spartans if you'd choose for Ares, the god of War. If you'd prefer Athens' walls above the Spartans, you could choose for Athena.

Is that an idea?

Edited by Taralom, 22 June 2009 - 03:30 PM.

[Gfire]

Yeah, I was thinking of some of that.

But if Athens was allied with Sparta, they wouldn't stop building walls, would they?

But I kinda like the idea of the gods and city states... It allows the humans to be the center of the faction, and the gods will have an impact on more than mythical units... The question is, what is the third city-state? A good triangle of gods would really be best, I think. Perhaps Apollo and Troy?

[Crusard]

I really don't like to diversify the greek faction with different subfaction-like features. Maybe a different god system that changes powers only.

Regarding walls, just think what would Greece be if it was a single, unified nation. Yes, they would have walls in major cities because not having them is plain stupid
I'm not a historian but I'd go more for an Athenean way of things because it was the greatest city-state. The spartans should have a participation as an elite infantry unit (like I mentioned in my list earlier as well ).

[Taralom]

Yeah, I was thinking of some of that.

But if Athens was allied with Sparta, they wouldn't stop building walls, would they?

Athens? They'd definately stop, since their walls were the only thing what gave them an advantage against the Spartans Hoplites.

But I kinda like the idea of the gods and city states... It allows the humans to be the center of the faction, and the gods will have an impact on more than mythical units... The question is, what is the third city-state? A good triangle of gods would really be best, I think. Perhaps Apollo and Troy?

not Troy. Troy was a mythic city and hasn't influenced the history of the world that much.
I'd go for Macedonia, because of the great impact Phillip and Alexander had in both Greece and Persia. The god would be (how stupid that we've forgotten him!) Zeus!

During 332–331 BC, Alexander was welcomed as a liberator[41] in an Egypt ruled by Persians and was pronounced the new Master of the Universe[42] and son of Zeus[citation needed] by Egyptian priests of the deity Amun[42] at the Oracle of Siwa Oasis in the Libyan desert.

directly taken from Wikipedia, but it's true. My history books confirm it. Alexander called himself Son of Zeus, btw. Is that a good suggestion?

I'm not a historian but I'd go more for an Athenean way of things because it was the greatest city-state. The spartans should have a participation as an elite infantry unit (like I mentioned in my list earlier as well ).

Oh? As far as I know, there was no greatest city state. There was Sparta and Athens, constantly rivalling each other. If any City-State has to be called greater than the other, it has to be Sparta, since they conquered Athens a few times.

Edited by Taralom, 22 June 2009 - 05:58 PM.

[Gfire]

Well, whatever, it doesn't matter. I think I agree with Crusard, though. I think a single myth unit and a spell set should be all you can customize for each faction.

Alright, so if their walls were the only things that gave them protection against the Spartans, why does that mean they aren't needed against other non-spartan enemies? You aren't making any sense to me.

Edited by Gfire, 22 June 2009 - 06:13 PM.

[Taralom]

Alright, so if their walls were the only things that gave them protection against the Spartans, why does that mean they aren't needed against other non-spartan enemies? You aren't making any sense to me.

i'm sorry, I believe I read your question wrong...

If Athens was allied with Sparta, after they waged war against them, they'd stop building walls, because they had no more need for further fortifications.

If Athens was always allied with Sparta, our entire history would've changed. Perhaps we would be speaking Persian right now if that happened. I don't know, to be frank.

[Gfire]

Alright... So why would they have no more need for walls? Aren't they useful against Persians and whatnot, too?

[Taralom]

Ever heard of the battle of Marathon? That's why...
The walls were already there when the Persians attacked, I believe.

You've got to see it like this:
A town that has no need for a wall, will not build one, since it is a waste of resources. A town that is constantly raided or under attack, will build a wall to defend itself. Sparta is the sole exception.



I'm trying to find historical grounds where the Spartans actually built walls somewhere. But I just simply can't find any.
A question from my side: How close will you stay to the people? Everything historically based, or loosely based?

I might have gotten something.

The Greek city-wall, built in successive stages from the 4th to the 2nd century, was traced for a great part of its circuit, which measured 48 stades or nearly 10 km (Polyb. 1X. 21). The late Roman wall enclosing the acropolis, part of which probably dates from the years following the Gothic raid of AD 262, was also investigated.

it's from Sparta, by the way

Edited by Taralom, 22 June 2009 - 08:11 PM.

[Gfire]

Well, think of it in-game, though. There aren't walls already there, except on fortress maps, for anyone, at any time.

[Taralom]

Hmm, I suppose you're right.
Though I'd like to see the choice-system, I guess that I cannot decide since I'm not modding

Well, you're decision after all, here's my 2 cents.

[Gfire]

I think the gods should still be kept, but with spells, mostly.