77 replies to this topic

[Pellean]

I know that back when Phoenix released the new star destroyers there was some discussion on the Tector-class regarding its unknown function; there is no source material on the ship, nor is it mentioned in any official EU book. Since the forum is a little slow right now, I thought it would be fun to share a little conjecture on the nature of the mysterious ship.

To recap on the older discussion, the Tector does not have the open hangar bays characteristic of the other ships in the star destroyer family, though it has been hypothesized that there may be small shuttle bays in the side ridges, or possibly umbilical ports for transferring to and from large transports. From this, we can deduce that all of the interior space normally taken up by the hangar bays themselves, hangar deep-storage (several decks of multi-story vehicle bays, see Dark Force Rising), a prefabricated garrison base, a planetary invasion force (Imperial tacticians considered the ground forces carried by a star destroyer to be sufficient for quelling an average planetary rebellion, see the Imperial Sourcebook), and all of the techs, pilots, and noncombatants required to support them is unoccupied on the Tector, leaving at least 30% of the interior open.

Some of my ideas:
The ship is an armed supertanker- while its lack of loading bays negate the possibility of the Tector being an upscaled star galleon, the aforementioned possibility of umbilical hookups allows for one special kind of cargo: liquid or gaseous fuels. However, the ship's presence at Endor then presents its own problem- given the ungainliness of maneuvering two capital ships to align something as small as a fuel port, it is unlikely that refueling occurs during combat. Since the Empire knew that there would be combat over Endor, why bring a tanker when all provisioning could be done beforehand?

The ship has advanced computation or communication equipment- the second Death Star Project was certainly sensitive enough to warrant a direct and secure line of communication with Imperial Command; maybe the Tector was a mobile and oversized Sector Plexus conduit?

The ship is a dedicated gun platform- this is the route that Phoenix has taken; however, surely that much extra space for power generators would allow an armament on par with a Praetor at least? The Tector-class in the mod has an armament approximately equivalent to the Imperial-class in terms of power requirements (this assumes that ion cannons are equatable with turbolasers).

The ship has some kind of special ordinance- this is the most likely solution in my opinion. What that ordinance is, however, is another question. I think that it is highly unlikely to be a hyperspace pulsemass generator; if he had immediate access to one, why would Palpatine not simply annihilate the Rebellion Fleet in transit, as he knew both their point of departure and destination? If that is the armament of the Tector, only the Emperor's desire to gloat and watch his enemies die in realspace can explain its lack of use. Other candidates include a gravshock device, some internal countermeasure system, or some obscure special weapon that, like the Tector, we know nothing about.

Let the debate begin!

[evilbobthebob]

How about it's just a cheap version of the ISD with basically the same power requirements and just a lot of empty space? While it is conceivable that the Empire could produce enough ground units to fill their Imperial-Class ships, it's unlikely that they would bother because it wouldn't be necessary. Similarly, there are a lot of starfighter support staff and the starfighters and pilots themselves that add to the cost of an Imperial-Class. So Kuat Drive Yards churned out thousands of Imperial-Class hulls, but many of them couldn't/didn't need to be filled with starfighters and ground troops. Instead they just had the hangars and power generators covered with armour, and used as primarily ship-to-ship combatants in (presumably) deep space, where the ground forces of an Imperial-Class would be irrelevant. Of course they would probably need to be supported by anti-fighter corvettes so they didn't succumb to bomber attack. I could envisage them being stationed at hyperspace junctions and the like to "protect" (intimidate) the shipping lanes. Plus they have the bonus of being mistaken for an Imperial-Class if they are a long distance away, which may discourage opportunistic pirates.

[feld]

Let the debate begin!

Man, I'm so glad you asked. Of yours I think I like "gun platform" best...THOUGH...your "communication ship" idea is close to an apparently un-realized portion of the script for RotJ (which is in the novel) in which the Rebels take out an Imperial Communications Ship.

About the huge "wasted" internal volume in TECTOR: don't forget that the only reason PR doesn't have a different model is that...well...he didn't have a different model. Still - I know what you mean. All of the long shots in RotJ clearly show ships that look VERY much like ISD's.

But, to add to the mix: What if TECTOR came first?
I conjecture TECTOR was the Republic Navy's initial reaction to the realization that space battles like the Battle of Coruscant (seen in Ep III) were going to become the norm because of where the Clone Wars had pushed space combat technology to. Short sharp knife fights over strongholds that they absolutely had to defend. I think that battle shocked the hell out of them. I think that their VENATORs got there collective butts largely handed to them (conjecture: due to the weakly armored hanger bay doors). I think that the (now Imperial) Navy looked to fix that problem shortly after Ep III. They turned to KDY (who had components lying around from their "sector defense fleet"). The Navy asked KDY to up-gun and make a hyperdrive equipped ship out of their "wedge shaped sector defense fleets" (mentioned in the Incredible Cross Sections books) to fight battles like Coruscant.

The Emperor and Vader, of course, let it happen...even though they knew that what they were really going to need was a ship capable of quelling unrest in any normal system in "their new Empire". They needed a troop carrier that they could mass produce with enough space to space firepower to make attacking it with any reasonable system defense force suicide. So they let the Admirals (you know...the kind pictured twenty years later in the newspaper comics series who are always conviving behind Vader's back around the time of ESB) have a few of their pretty TECTOR-class Star Destroyers. All the while quietly letting KDY that they were interested on "variants" of the basic design...with unheard of troop carrying capacity...

One big problem with my plan: the ISD is quite clearly a late-era Clone Wars ship. Vader is shown using one of the early ones as a flagship in various Dark Times comics and I *think* that they're mentioned in the novelization to episode III.

Anyway...you guys know I love this kind of talk...I've kludged together a slideshow on this at one point for PR...lemme go see if I can find it!!!

v/r
feld

[feld]

How about it's just a cheap version of the ISD with basically the same power requirements and just a lot of empty space?

Don't forget that (if you lowered the internal volume) then a given set of shield generators would probably become even more powerful...

[P.O._210877]

Truth is that the Tector is really a mistake/error/choice that some ILM guys decided to put on screen in the Battle of Endor. Like many things we saw in the movies, this particular ship was only considered as a prop with no thoughts given to any other considerations outside the picture frame. Maybe one ISD maquette broke and was repaired with hull platings covering the mess, maybe someone said that some variety in the shots was needed and a slightly different looking ISD was produced as a result. In all probability nobody made a counscious decision to create another class of ship, it was an ISD that looked different on the underside plain and simple.

But since then a lot of time has gone by and Star Wars fans, being what we are, exposed every inconsistencies, every hidden details that we could find. So we made important cases of just about anything unexplained and wanted answers, after all most of us would gladly give up an arm and a leg to live in the Star Wars universe. So fans made-up their own explanations, in universe of course, then authors and artists made their own and even recycled fans ideas. Now that really got the ball rolling and before you know it you wake up one morning and learn a new word : retcon. Seeing that fans are so passionate about all those very little and insignificant looking pieces of photage, people at Lucas start pleasing the fans by releasing a pletora of new information based on those half seen, half heard pieces of cinematic oddities.

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the depth of the Star Wars universe, hell I remember a time when there was nothing more to Star Wars then the first 2 movies, a book or two and a whole lot of toys. The thing is that now, the fans want so much to see what lies beyond the next grain of space dust, they throw away their common sense.

IMO the Tector was just an happenstance of the reality on the set of RotJ, but since it is now an official SD class and next to nothing is known about it; I would recommend one of two things: treat it as fannon and do with it what the blazes you want, or wait for more canon info to come our way. Surely someone with a Lucas contract will come around to it sooner or later.

But as far as fannon based designs go I think PR has a good take on the Tector, I personally believe that the ISD doesn't need the competition, being THE iconic ship of the Empire. But what the hell if Leland Chee and friends can come up with a good backstory for the class, I'm all ears.

Edited by P.O._210877, 11 May 2010 - 10:11 PM.

[evilbobthebob]

Of course the Tector was the result of movie models. I expect it was an ISD model that only had the top half so they quickly filled in the rest; or it was a prototype model they had lying around and had to use it because there were barely enough models to count as the Imperial Fleet at Endor.

I agree with you about the SW fans as well. The "official" name, Tector-Class was basically invented by a fan, Curtis Saxton, when he wrote the RotS Incredible Cross-Sections book. Because the book was Lucasarts-endorsed, it became canon that there was a contemporary to the Imperator that was hangarless. Both were considered replacements for the Venator-Class, so you're correct in some ways, feld, about it being the response to the Battle of Coruscant.

The way I see it, the Tector is more of a battlecruiser. Perhaps a little faster than the Imperator, more effective in ship-to-ship combat, but almost useless at anything else. If we assume it has few or ineffective anti-fighter weaponry, it is somewhat similar to the battleships of WW2 that were made obsolete by aircraft carriers.

So, the representation in PR is close to perfect as far as I can see. It's a cheaper alternative to an Imperator, but requires some sort of carrier or anti-fighter escort to be effective. PR is giving us a choice; and that's the important thing. We don't HAVE to use the Tector, but it's an appealing option if you're short on cash and the Rebels keep attacking with Mon Calamari Star Cruisers.

[Tropical Bob]

Armed death trap supertanker - I don't think it's likely. If I remember correctly, Imperial starships are designed so that they can go quite a while on their initial fuel and supplies. The idea of dedicating an entire ship to keep a few others out patrolling for a little bit longer doesn't make too much sense. As well, the ship would have to have shuttle bays for receiving important passengers and sending out important officers if situations ask for it, so that's what I'm guessing the side ridge things are.

Glorified supercomputer/walkie-talkie - Not likely either. There's another shot that Saxton has from the Battle of Endor of an Imperial-ish-class with an odd configuration, like the Tector-class, that he theorized it to be the communications/sensor variant from the novelization (Mentioned above by feld). For the Empire to design and deploy two ships fulfilling the same role off of the same hull design (Unless the two movie shots are of the same ship from two different angles). As far as the computer part of that, all the not-hangar space is too great to house a supercomputer. With the Holonet being instantaneous communication anywhere, there's no reason to take expensive equipment like that with you, instead of just streaming what you need decoded or whatever back to a secure location that's not surrounded by cold vacuum and enemies.

Battleship - I think this is the most likely solution. As is always mentioned, the non-hangar space can be used for a stronger reactor, stronger shield generators, more weapon capacitors, better engines, etc. I think it could have been a early design of the Imperial-class based more off of the successes of the Victory I/II-class in ship-to-ship combat, or perhaps just a short test of limited numbers of Tectors to measure their effectiveness versus the Imperial design. When the design didn't win out, what was there was kept around for the sake of having a heavy gunship if it was needed.

Special weaponry - Completely possible, and my second choice, but I'm still iffy on it.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 12 May 2010 - 01:44 AM.

[Pellean]

How about it's just a cheap version of the ISD with basically the same power requirements and just a lot of empty space? While it is conceivable that the Empire could produce enough ground units to fill their Imperial-Class ships, it's unlikely that they would bother because it wouldn't be necessary. Similarly, there are a lot of starfighter support staff and the starfighters and pilots themselves that add to the cost of an Imperial-Class. So Kuat Drive Yards churned out thousands of Imperial-Class hulls, but many of them couldn't/didn't need to be filled with starfighters and ground troops.

I don't think that is likely; from what I've read, the Imperial Army's growth is astronomical and limited only by the available naval assets to transport them. Similarly, the cost of building and outfitting a TIE Fighter is minuscule compared to that of a capital ship, and if the Empire was really feeling a shortage of fighter pilots they could easily lower their standards a little (only the top 5% of Naval Academy graduates were qualified for pilot training). Given the increasing instances of rebellion, it is unlikely that the Empire would limit its response ability by producing an inferior ship.

But, to add to the mix: What if TECTOR came first?

I like that- aside from explaining away the "missing" space as less efficient prototype design, it also makes a sense in the timeline: If the Tector is a single-purpose ship pounder as depicted by PR, it would have a clear role in the clone wars, where heavy combat between capital ships was likely (as you said, Coruscant probably scared the **** out of the Republic's strategists). When the CIS disbanded, the New Order had no resistance with the type of heavy firepower that the Tector was designed to combat, though scattered rebellions and protests became commonplace- hence, the more versatile Imperator.

Armed death trap supertanker - I don't think it's likely. If I remember correctly, Imperial starships are designed so that they can go quite a while on their initial fuel and supplies. The idea of dedicating an entire ship to keep a few others out patrolling for a little bit longer doesn't make too much sense.

I agree that it's not likely, I was merely mentioning a possibility. However, I would assume that the construction of the Death Star would require ungodly amounts of resources, including fuels. And if the superlaser is anything like conventional blaster technology, firing it would take a lot of blaster gas...

Glorified supercomputer/walkie-talkie - Not likely either. There's another shot that Saxton has from the Battle of Endor of an Imperial-ish-class with an odd configuration, like the Tector-class, that he theorized it to be the communications/sensor variant from the novelization (Mentioned above by feld). For the Empire to design and deploy two ships fulfilling the same role off of the same hull design (Unless the two movie shots are of the same ship from two different angles). As far as the computer part of that, all the not-hangar space is too great to house a supercomputer. With the Holonet being instantaneous communication anywhere, there's no reason to take expensive equipment like that with you, instead of just streaming what you need decoded or whatever back to a secure location that's not surrounded by cold vacuum and enemies.

I don't know a whole lot about computer size-vs.-capability technology, but I was thinking along the lines of very powerful and varied sensor equipment attached to some kind of advanced battle-analysis computer. Maybe the entire armament is rigged to behave more like a CoMar Tri-tracker (see WEG's Imperial Sourcebook); the lack of TIE cover could be a lure to bring unsuspecting fighters into range of turbolasers with lightning fast precision targeting. It's conceivable, considering the fighter-phobia that supposedly followed the Battle of Yavin and the appearance of the B-Wing. The processing power needed to coordinate so many sensors, weapons, and fast-moving targets would be huge.

[Tropical Bob]

I don't know a whole lot about computer size-vs.-capability technology, but I was thinking along the lines of very powerful and varied sensor equipment attached to some kind of advanced battle-analysis computer. Maybe the entire armament is rigged to behave more like a CoMar Tri-tracker (see WEG's Imperial Sourcebook); the lack of TIE cover could be a lure to bring unsuspecting fighters into range of turbolasers with lightning fast precision targeting. It's conceivable, considering the fighter-phobia that supposedly followed the Battle of Yavin and the appearance of the B-Wing. The processing power needed to coordinate so many sensors, weapons, and fast-moving targets would be huge.

Well there's nothing that I know of for Star Wars computer technology, but due to the fact that they are tens of thousands of years ahead of real-world technology, that's saying something. Even today, we fit more and more powerful processors into less and less space, and more efficiently, but that would be nothing compared to their tech. The processing power to coordinate so much would be immense, but would probably take no more space than the Death Star's detention level trash compactor, at most (And that's assuming some sort of supercomputer).

[Fox83]

Well there's nothing that I know of for Star Wars computer technology, but due to the fact that they are tens of thousands of years ahead of real-world technology, that's saying something. Even today, we fit more and more powerful processors into less and less space, and more efficiently, but that would be nothing compared to their tech. The processing power to coordinate so much would be immense, but would probably take no more space than the Death Star's detention level trash compactor, at most (And that's assuming some sort of supercomputer).

But you forgeting things like cooling systems for super computer, so while comp. coud be rather small supporting infrastructure may fill shuttle bay of Imperator SD. And since more modern comp's are more sensitive (and prone to HW damage) than older ones, you would like to place 2 or 3 backup for case of damage to the main computer since this is to be the most important system on the ship.

And it may not only work as Tector's accuracy boost but also fill the role of fleet target coordinator (for big fleet actions like Endor).

[Tropical Bob]

But you forgeting things like cooling systems for super computer, so while comp. coud be rather small supporting infrastructure may fill shuttle bay of Imperator SD. And since more modern comp's are more sensitive (and prone to HW damage) than older ones, you would like to place 2 or 3 backup for case of damage to the main computer since this is to be the most important system on the ship.

And it may not only work as Tector's accuracy boost but also fill the role of fleet target coordinator (for big fleet actions like Endor).

Even if heavy cooling is required, you forget that there's already an efficient system in place for the reactor and everything else. As well, if they're worried enough about any damage to a system buried at the center of the ship to install more than one, the same would go for the reactor, shield generator, engines, and pretty much every other sensitive system on the ship.

[feld]

But you forgeting things like cooling systems for super computer, so while comp. coud be rather small supporting infrastructure may fill shuttle bay of Imperator SD. And since more modern comp's are more sensitive (and prone to HW damage) than older ones, you would like to place 2 or 3 backup for case of damage to the main computer since this is to be the most important system on the ship.

And it may not only work as Tector's accuracy boost but also fill the role of fleet target coordinator (for big fleet actions like Endor).

Even if heavy cooling is required, you forget that there's already an efficient system in place for the reactor and everything else. As well, if they're worried enough about any damage to a system buried at the center of the ship to install more than one, the same would go for the reactor, shield generator, engines, and pretty much every other sensitive system on the ship.

Merging these ideas...perhaps TECTOR and the "nameless communications ship" were the same vessel.
@Bob - the computer might not take up lots of room...but a multi-channel Holonet "node" might...especially if the ship was designed to coordinate Holonet comms for the Sector Group that was present at Endor. We already know that Holonet transceivers are large and power hungry. Hmm....such a ship needs to stay with the fleet...but it also needs to be survivable...and it would be an attractive target for starfighter raids. Hence the elimination of massive holes in the armor required by dedicated "fast flyout" fleet carrier hangar bays.

Yeah...I could see this one.

Mind you - I think I like the "hover on repulsor at low altitude and kill enemy ships" design better...but the comms ship = TECTOR argument has alot going for it. It also combines the Real World (tm.) info we have on the production of RotJ (that there was a sequence with a special comms ship that was cut). My only real problem with the comms ship interpretation was that SURELY an Executor-class Star Dreadnought (aka. "The Command Ship") would have adequate communications facilities. Why have another ship there?

Oh, I found the TECTOR design presentation I did. It's a powerpoint show illustrating some of ideas above. If you folks want to take a look, here it is:
 Small_TECTOR.ppt   2.86MB   314 downloads (Sorry...it's 2.86 MB and you'll need Powerpoint to view it)

Anyway, this was all part of an attempt about six months ago maybe to try to convince a modeller to do a different external design for TECTOR. In the end - I decided that the best compromise fanon design just wasn't different enough from the ISD to really bother. But...I had fun!

v/r
feld

PS
Yes-I'm a geek. I do this for fun.

Edited by feld, 12 May 2010 - 05:59 PM.

[evilbobthebob]

Pff. A slideshow is nothing compared to the documents I've had to write for UEAW

As for an alternative model, the main differences in design appear to below the ship...precisely the part a player never really sees in EaW gameplay unless you turn on the cinematic camera

[Tropical Bob]

Well, the Tector could probably be generally based off of the general superstructure as the Imperial, while still rearranging the reactor bulb higher up into the ship (Hence the lack of a visible bulb) and shifting anything that would have been above it in the Imperial design to where the normal troop garrisons and now nonexistent hangar was. So you wouldn't necessarily have to eliminate any deck tiers.

[feld]

Well, the Tector could probably be generally based off of the general superstructure as the Imperial, while still rearranging the reactor bulb higher up into the ship (Hence the lack of a visible bulb) and shifting anything that would have been above it in the Imperial design to where the normal troop garrisons and now nonexistent hangar was. So you wouldn't necessarily have to eliminate any deck tiers.

Part of the point is that eliminating deck tiers is good. It would seem to allow a given set of shield generators to provide stronger shields (because of the smaller volume) and opens up the firing arcs of weapons.

v/r
feld

[Pellean]

(Communications) starship: A distinctive design of Imperial warship, implicitly larger than the star destroyers, though probably smaller than the Executor. It has noteworthy docking bays and forward gun batteries. This vessel and the scene of its destruction were not included in the movie, possibly because the special effects modellers lacked the time needed to build or complete the model.
-Curtis Saxton (http://www.theforce....ovels/rotj.html)

The Tector is probably not the lost communications ship from the movie based on Saxton's description. That does not mean that it could not also have superior comm ability compared to other Imperial ships.

QUOTE (Tropical Bob @ May 13 2010, 01:37 AM) *
Well, the Tector could probably be generally based off of the general superstructure as the Imperial, while still rearranging the reactor bulb higher up into the ship (Hence the lack of a visible bulb) and shifting anything that would have been above it in the Imperial design to where the normal troop garrisons and now nonexistent hangar was. So you wouldn't necessarily have to eliminate any deck tiers.


Part of the point is that eliminating deck tiers is good. It would seem to allow a given set of shield generators to provide stronger shields (because of the smaller volume) and opens up the firing arcs of weapons.

PR lists the length as 1600m, identical to the Imperator. Saxton also seems to think that it is the same scale as a traditional star destroyer (though all of our evidence is based on a belly shot; the hull could be much shorter and we would not be able to tell the difference, so I suppose this response is a moot point).

PS
Yes-I'm a geek. I do this for fun.

Me too- I just don't have the background in physics to make quite as meaningful observations

By the way, how do you get those tags that say who was quoted in your post?

[feld]

By the way, how do you get those tags that say who was quoted in your post?

I just use the reply button to the post that I'm replying to. Don't think I do anything else special...

v/r
feld

[Tropical Bob]

Part of the point is that eliminating deck tiers is good. It would seem to allow a given set of shield generators to provide stronger shields (because of the smaller volume) and opens up the firing arcs of weapons.

v/r
feld

Agreed. But the general consensus of the Tector's viability (Or whatever) was because of it sharing the superstructure of the Imperial. So I was supporting that point.

[Kaleb Graff]

I think we discussed this a while ago, and came to the Tector came first conclusion, which I also support for several reasons:
1. The reactor placement. Placing the reactor outside the hull is a bad idea from an armor point of view, but it isn't large enough to require outside placement, as demonstrated in Feld's PowerPoint. However, if the Tector came first, particularly as a battleship design, and was then modified, the reactor was likely moved for several reasons. First, the hangar and troop quarters took up more space in the hull, forcing the bulged reactor, probably protruding partway through the access/replacement hatch. Second, the reactor could have been moved out to balance the ship, as the hangar will likely be less dense than whatever replaced it, throwing off the center of gravity.
2. Reqiuirements. As Feld mentioned above, the Venator was horrendously designed for close-ranged battles. A new ship would be built for what was expected, then modified when pacification became the main objective.
3. There is a possibility that the Tector and Imperator are two ships of a group which we haven't seen all of, possibly based on the Tector hull. There's likely a starfighter carrier, and possibly also an "assault carrier" variant. This sort of reminds me of how the first USN LPHs came about.
4. Weapons placement on the ISD. The fact that almost all of an ISD's firepower is on the dorsal hull is very poor design for a dedicated ship-to-ship warship. When enemies can come in from all sides, having all firepower on one surface makes no sense. The giant open hangar and exposed reactor bulb also would be serious liabilities. However, these are explained by a modification of a Tector-class battleship. In this scenario, the ISD is actually not built for serious combat. The Tector had the heavy turrets on both sides, and when the ISD was being built, the designers decided to remove the ventral turrets, as well as adding a large hangar bay and bulging the reactor for reasons listed above. The remaining turrets allow massive firepower for BDZs and such, but are not built for serious fleet actions. I would assume that Imperial doctrine in fleet battles is to either have multiple ISDs to cover each others bottoms or preferably use Tectors.

This entire discussion reminds me of the time a couple years ago I wrote a paper on the organization of the New Republic Fleet. Yes, I am that big of a geek.

[Zeta1127]

A tanker, isn't very likely. The Republic/Empire doesn't need a tanker, because there is virtually no evidence of any ships needing refueling it that manner.

A communications ship, isn't likely, but is much more plausible than a tanker. The only problem I have with that interpretation is that fact that the Executor and her sister ships should have more than adequate comm equipment for large fleet engagements, because they are command ships and the dedicated communications ship is thought to be of a different larger design than the Tector.

A dedicated battleship, is very likely and pretty logical given the ship-to-ship inadequacies previously mentioned of the Imperator/Imperial line. Since the Tector has superior ventral armor than the Imperial, that makes it ideally suited for ship-to-ship combat, but not much else.

Edited by Zeta1127, 17 May 2010 - 06:10 PM.