17 replies to this topic

[Tropical Bob]

So I was just reminded of the Nebula-class Star Destroyer and its absence from the mod. After doing a quick forum search, the conclusions I came to as to why it's not added are:

• It's too similar to the Republic-class Star Destroyer.
  
  • The armaments are almost exactly the same. The only visible differences are the turreted concussion missile launchers on the Nebula, the heavy turbolasers being duals on the the Nebula, two less tractor beam projectors on the Nebula, and it being able to hold 60 'Starfighters/shuttles' compared to the Republic's 36.
• EvilleJedi had a model for the Nebula, but hadn't skinned it yet.
  
  • It's certainly been a while since then, so perhaps EvilleJedi has skinned it, or someone else has a good model/skin they'd be alright with donating.

The argument of the ship specs is certainly a valid argument, as the mod already has limited build room, so any overlapping unit roles should be scrutinized heavily. There are certainly a couple differences that should not be overlooked.

• The Nebula was designed as a heavy destroyer/capital ship. It's supposed to single-handedly take on an Imperial II, as well as stack up somewhat decently against some of the smaller 'Super Star Destroyers', probably along the likes of the Allegiance-class. The Republic-class, on the other hand, outmatches an Imperial I, but not necessarily an Imperial II.
• The concussion missiles! A definite branch of design separation, the mod's upgrade specialization could put some heavy emphasis on this, like the Acclamator, turning those concussion missile launchers into heavier payloads. The Republic has no direct hull damaging weaponry.
• Cost:
  
• According to Wookie, at least, the Nebula is much, much more cost-efficient. At 168,528,000 credits, it's as much as 1/10th the cost of the whopping 1.94 billion credit cost of the Republic, while still presenting basically heavier armaments. I'm not sure where Wookie got these numbers (Google searching everything yields similar costs, and numbers aren't mentioned in Cracken's Threat Dossier), so if we play it safe and throw another zero on the cost of the Nebula, it's still cheaper.
• On consumables: The Nebula, crewing an additional 700 hands, and having roughly 2/3rds the cargo capacity, has a much shorter deployment duration. The number quoted is 6 months, versus the 2 years for the Republic. This could be factored in to the cost somehow. I didn't check my source well enough. The Nebula has the larger cargo capacity, and the 700 extra hands were for a minimum crew. The Nebula actually staffs, on average, about 1,500 less than the Republic, and is accompanied by another 1,600 less soldiers.
• Inflation: The cost of the Nebula may not be adjusted for in-universe inflation. In that case, the Nebula may end up near or greater the price of the Republic without artificially inflating it via throwing numbers in or consumable costs. The issue then becomes how the in-universe inflation would be calculated to adjust the price to something a little more proper.

Much like the Lancer-class Frigate for the Empire, the Nebula-class Star Destroyer is a modern pinnacle of cost-effectiveness. Cheaper than its predecessors, yet able to do the job that much better, the Nebula could be introduced, and specialized, into the New Republic arsenal as a heavy capital ship. In order to give the player incentive to grab the Republic over the Nebula, perhaps the Republic could be specialized into a more specific category a bit more, or to delay the Nebula-class one more step past the Republic-class in the tech tree, if possible.


In addition to the Nebula, the New Republic could be given its dedicated carrier capital from the New Class Modernization Program as well, the Endurance-class Fleet Carrier.

• I noticed that the Thrawn's Revenge mod was able to compromise a model together (Linky), based on it being built off the same frame as the Nebula-class. Despite the ship being rather ugly, the model itself looks nice from the picture.
• EvilleJedi also has one modeled, if not textured (Linky), but it's based off of his modeled Defender-class, and doesn't really appear to be similar enough in frame to the Nebula-class, despite looking nicer, in my opinion, than the Thrawn's Revenge Endurance model.

So, all in all, my points are:

• PR Team: are there any current or near future plans to incorporate the Nebula and/or other New Class ships into the mod?
• Everyone else: Discuss your thoughts on the Nebula vs. Republic conundrum and proposed solutions. Propose your own solutions if you think of any.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 04 September 2010 - 03:25 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

Similarities to the Republic-class are more of a prioritization issue; I suspect we'll finish the New Class at some point, art willing. Both Nebula and Endurance would go on top of the Republic on the tech tree, given that the Corona/Belarus/Republic "line" is a stopgap solution. 1.94 billion is erroneous to the Starships of the Galaxy/pre-Saga RPG cost system that we generally use, although Republic > Nebula is correct.

[Tropical Bob]

What kind of differentiation do you envision for the two classes? I know I personally don't want basically two of the same ship, but one being less expensive and better at what it does than the other. I definitely would prefer a large enough difference that the Republic would be given some regard over the Nebula in certain situations.

Such is why the Acclamator is one of my favorite ships in the mod. Instead of just upgrading the general weaponry, it's given special emphasis on the missile complement, basically turning it into a very large bomber (Though, it still retains a limited number of launchers, which I sometimes regret seeing).

Edited by Tropical Bob, 02 September 2010 - 04:35 PM.

[flashghandi]

What kind of differentiation do you envision for the two classes? I know I personally don't want basically two of the same ship, but one being less expensive and better at what it does than the other. I definitely would prefer a large enough difference that the Republic would be given some regard over the Nebula in certain situations.

Such is why the Acclamator is one of my favorite ships in the mod. Instead of just upgrading the general weaponry, it's given special emphasis on the missile complement, basically turning it into a very large bomber (Though, it still retains a limited number of launchers, which I sometimes regret seeing).

I've thought a lot about the Nebula vs Republic arguments as they've been had for many mods of SW games, going back to XvT, Star Trek Armada, etc. etc. The cost-efficiency argument doesn't make sense to me - shouldn't an ultra modern, energy efficient battlecruiser cost much more in terms of R+D at least, to be able to bring such a low-cost but powerful ship to the front lines? This would have to be reflected in unit cost in game, I would imagine. The Nebula is supposed to be rare enough even during the NJO timeline that only a dozen or so exist, and are held close in to protect the core worlds. It's ability to take out an Impstar-II says quite a bit for it's advanced weaponry/shields; it is more than capable of taking down one of the most powerful warships the Imps have to offer, but does it with roughly half the weapons emplacements.

That being said, I think it makes more sense for the Republic to be more of a regular vessel in the NR battle line; more numerous while being more standard in capability as well. It was supposed to be comparable in power to the Imperial-I, so it should also be comparable in role. Having the Nebula be a more specialized vessel, whether it be through more advanced, longer ranged turbolasers or a bevy of missile launchers, makes sense. It seems like these ships were the real heavy hitters of the fleet, even though they were not necessarily flagships at the time as specialized carriers really seemed to rise to prominence as fleet command/control vessels. With the "New Class" taking this idea of vessel specialization and running with it, it makes sense to have the Nebula and Endurance classes on a higher plane in the tech tree.

I guess I really don't see a way to reflect this unless the cost of the vessel is substantially higher than the Republic; while the Republic may still be prevalent in NR fleets down the road due to its workman like capabilities (just like Impstars!) and thus not necessarily be replaced by the Nebula, it shouldn't be more expensive than the Nebula for the purposes of game balance, right? And the ships should each occupy a different role if possible, with the Republic as more of a general purpose cruiser, while the Nebula takes on the mantle of heavily-shielded heavy hitter when introduced. Thoughts?

[Tropical Bob]

The Nebula is nearly non-existent because of the Bantam books being largely ignored by the rest of everyone, so I keep hearing, rather than it being rare for any realistic sense.

The cost issue is basically the same as with the Lancer, as I brought up. It's much cheaper for anti-starfighter work compared to other anti-starfighter ships, and even does it much better. I think it's something to do with basically taking the success of what you have (Imperial-class), and just optimizing it, rather than coming up with something new.

I still have somewhat of a problem with the Republic being a general purpose cruiser, and the Nebula being the heavy hitter, because the Nebula would still be able to fill the Republic's role at a reduced cost.

It's probably because the Nebula's complement is 60 starfighters/shuttles. If that's reduced, it not only fits the smaller ship design, but allows the Republic to take on the role as a general purpose cruiser, having the larger starfighter complement. But as is, the Nebula has more/stronger weapons, stronger shields/hull, as well as a larger complement, all at that reduced cost.

By looking at the ship designs though, it almost appears as if the Nebula is more of a "get in your face" kind of ship, designed for broadsides with targets all around it, whereas the Republic is designed off of the principle of the Imperial, where the ship design funnels all weapons into a forward arc. This does make sense, since the Nebula's shields are supposed to be so hard to crack. Dive in and do massive damage, and come out unscathed.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 02 September 2010 - 08:23 PM.

[flashghandi]

The Nebula is nearly non-existent because of the Bantam books being largely ignored by the rest of everyone, so I keep hearing, rather than it being rare for any realistic sense.

The cost issue is basically the same as with the Lancer, as I brought up. It's much cheaper for anti-starfighter work compared to other anti-starfighter ships, and even does it much better. I think it's something to do with basically taking the success of what you have (Imperial-class), and just optimizing it, rather than coming up with something new.

I still have somewhat of a problem with the Republic being a general purpose cruiser, and the Nebula being the heavy hitter, because the Nebula would still be able to fill the Republic's role at a reduced cost.

It's probably because the Nebula's complement is 60 starfighters/shuttles. If that's reduced, it not only fits the smaller ship design, but allows the Republic to take on the role as a general purpose cruiser, having the larger starfighter complement. But as is, the Nebula has more/stronger weapons, stronger shields/hull, as well as a larger complement, all at that reduced cost.

By looking at the ship designs though, it almost appears as if the Nebula is more of a "get in your face" kind of ship, designed for broadsides with targets all around it, whereas the Republic is designed off of the principle of the Imperial, where the ship design funnels all weapons into a forward arc. This does make sense, since the Nebula's shields are supposed to be so hard to crack. Dive in and do massive damage, and come out unscathed.

You know, I really think that's a great analysis. The Nebula has such a dimunitive size - it doesn't make sense that it have such a large starfighter capacity compared to other ships. When canon specs conflict, i think reason should rule, which is what you've done here. It's easy enough to explain that even though the same number of weapons exist between both SD's (roughly), the Neb's are more modern/powerful. Not a great argument, but believable enough to me. Giving the Neb hardy shields and a powerful armament definitely makes it more of a central vessel that can soak up damage/tank, while being in the middle of a firefight; also, it's small size makes it more likely to be able to dive into a fight and back out with the least amount of nit-picky manuvering. Enter the Rebs as a general purpose cruiser (GPC), similar to how you'd use Escort Frigates or Dreadnaughts in earlier battles. And as you mentioned, as a GPC it will still be valuable down the road, as older more lightly armed escorts fall by the wayside. The Reb could have weaker shields and armor, but a decent armament and ability to carry fighters as well.

I do think there is an opportunity for the Neb to stand out even more given it's missile complement via Assault Conc. Missiles. Making it a dedicated anti-starship vessel nicely differentiates it from the Reb, while also giving it a specific and welcomed role in the NR navy. Having a stripped-down warship built for capship on capship combat isn't something the NR fleet really has, given the dual use of MonCals in the timeline as carrier/destroyers. That being said, I suppose the Neb should have a weakness highlighted; lack of fighters of its own anti-starfighter weapons, so it requires escorts? Given the game mechanics, I feel like that still doesn't bring the reasonable cost of the Neb down to where the Reb is, but moving in the right direction...

The inconsistency of canon ship specifications is annoying. They tend to introduce great ships in EU, but not really provide much information. And then when information is finally provided, it is conflicting compared to other ships in the timeline. The Black Fleet Crisis books really did muck things up a bit. That being said, I've always loved the Nebula. Given the importance of fighters in EaW/PR, the lack of fighters complementing the Neb may be significant. But the added Conc launchers should boost the price... There really isn't much information regarding the shielding of the Neb, but we both agree it should be strong. The only real motivator for AI/human players would be to get the best ship for the lowest price; if the Reb can still fulfil the GPC/carrier role even when the Neb comes about, then I think players will still build it.

Edited by flashghandi, 02 September 2010 - 08:55 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

What kind of differentiation do you envision for the two classes? I know I personally don't want basically two of the same ship, but one being less expensive and better at what it does than the other.

I haven't really thought much about it yet (too preoccupied with real changes to worry about hypothetical ones). It can be done though. The Nebula is the premier destroyer for the New Republic and it should reflect that. Perhaps the Republic is more defensive and the Nebula is more offensive. I can rework Republic upgrades if necessary.

The cost-efficiency argument doesn't make sense to me - shouldn't an ultra modern, energy efficient battlecruiser cost much more in terms of R+D at least, to be able to bring such a low-cost but powerful ship to the front lines?

It would cost more in terms of R&D - 25k apiece on top of the 20k for the Republic.

This would have to be reflected in unit cost in game, I would imagine.

Not really. Strike cruisers are cheap and ultra-modern.

The Nebula is supposed to be rare enough even during the NJO timeline that only a dozen or so exist, and are held close in to protect the core worlds.

As Tropical Bob says, we don't have to fall into the traps of poor research just because NJO authors did. I've estimated that the Republic-class was built from 6.5 ABY to 16 ABY (assuming it ended with New Class) and the Nebula was built from 13 ABY on. 6.5 ABY to about 12.5 ABY is pure turmoil for the NR, with repairs delaying the launch of new ships. Even if Fondor was relatively unscathed, Kuat, Sluis Van, Mon Calamari, and so on were all hit. By 13 ABY, the final New Class designs were ready (given the phrasing "almost a decade after Endor"). That's six years of war and six of peace before the Vong invasion. Nebulas should definitely outnumber Republics (by the way, the Republic-class in NJO is an entirely different design).

I guess I really don't see a way to reflect this unless the cost of the vessel is substantially higher than the Republic; while the Republic may still be prevalent in NR fleets down the road due to its workman like capabilities (just like Impstars!) and thus not necessarily be replaced by the Nebula, it shouldn't be more expensive than the Nebula for the purposes of game balance, right?

The problem is, the Republic is significantly larger than the Defender. All else the same, it should cost more and have a better hull.

As for pricing, well, I'm not prone to making up numbers. If I can source it as less or more, then that's what it'll be.

Update: it would seem that the 1.94 billion figure is the result of someone being overly literal and taking half of the outlier 3.88 billion cost of an ISD and applying it to the RSD. Using consistent SotG pricing (every other sourcebook lamely writes "not for sale"), it works out to 168,528k for the Nebula and 72,835k for the Republic, which puts the latter in range of Victory/Venator pricing. I'll re-check the stat conversion on that and hopefully get it more in line with those two. That should do it.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 02 September 2010 - 10:39 PM.

[Kaleb Graff]

I really support the Nebula, but don't understand everyone's obsession with pricing. The New Class was specifically designed to increase economy in the production and upkeep of warships. It would not be unreasonable for the Nebula to be both better and cheaper. Game balance is to make sure that neither side is more powerful, not that both sides have equal ships.
One thing I would recommend changing is the fighter complement, though. Sacrificing a lot of heavy weapons is a bit unreasonable to gain a squadron of fighters. Even if we say that K-wings take more space, it's still too much. I would reduce the Nebula's complement to 36, the standard New Republic wing.
The Nebula is truly a great design for dealing with impstars. In RPG simulations, it usually managed to take out it's target without it's own shields going down.

[Zeta1127]

The unfortunate problem that has developed with the Nebula (and the New Class in general) is it has been so under depicted, making such discussions as this difficult at best. I don't like the idea of nerfing the Nebula's fighter complement, its lack of consumables in comparison to other Star Destroyers is the side effect of carrying so many fighters. The Nebula is not a stripped-down warship, but a modern-armament pocket Star Destroyer capable of taking down ships larger than itself. Starfighters are the bread and butter of the NRDF, which adds to the Nebula's ability to deal with ImpStar Deuces and comparable ships, and besides, size matters not!

[Phoenix Rising]

I'm not dealing with complement volume unless someone is willing to compute it for everything. Until then, 1 fighter = 1 bomber = 1 transport.

[SpardaSon21]

So, hypothetically speaking, if the Nebula did get added in, would it be a destroyer like the Republic or a capital like the Impstars? Also, its role would be that of a heavy linebreaker, designed to smash through enemy formations by brute force and heavy firepower?

[Phoenix Rising]

Both of them are destroyers - classes are determined by keel length. It's role would be whatever you wanted it to be.

[Tropical Bob]

I really support the Nebula, but don't understand everyone's obsession with pricing. The New Class was specifically designed to increase economy in the production and upkeep of warships.

The issue with the cost is that a new design with the increase of technology can increase the cost immensely. An example being the Supercarriers that the US is rolling into production. The new Gerald R. Ford-class is supposed to cost $9 billion each, whereas the previous Nimitz-class cost approximately $4.5 billion each. Often enough, when you focus on better quality per product, you yield greater costs.

That being said, I have no large issue with the Nebula necessarily being cheaper, but it was the fact that it was 1/10th the cost of the previous generation ship.

It is definitely good news to hear that the Republic will come out to be less than half the price of the Nebula. It helps with the incentive part when you can get two Republics for the price of one Nebula.

The unfortunate problem that has developed with the Nebula (and the New Class in general) is it has been so under depicted, making such discussions as this difficult at best.

Then it is really all the more vital that we do discuss what might or might not be acceptable for introduction into the mod. With so little to work off of, any mistakes become all the more glaring without competing sources to borrow bits and pieces from to cover up.

Such as with the discussion on the Tector.

I don't like the idea of nerfing the Nebula's fighter complement, its lack of consumables in comparison to other Star Destroyers is the side effect of carrying so many fighters.

Whelp. I do have to make a quick retraction of an early statement about consumables in my original post.

On consumables: The Nebula, crewing an additional 700 hands, and having roughly 2/3rds the cargo capacity, has a much shorter deployment duration. The number quoted is 6 months, versus the 2 years for the Republic. This could be factored in to the cost somehow.

I didn't check my source well enough. The Nebula has the larger cargo capacity, and the 700 extra hands were for a minimum crew. The Nebula actually staffs, on average, about 1,500 less than the Republic, and is accompanied by another 1,600 less soldiers.

But I don't think carrying a few extra starfighter/shuttle craft is going to put a large dent in consumables. Even if fuel becomes the limiting factor, rather than food or water, I don't see two or three extra squadrons putting such a severe cramp on that resource much more than food or water.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 04 September 2010 - 04:05 PM.

[Zeta1127]

Yeah, the Tector and the Nebula (well, basically the entire New Class) are two of the coolest ships in the EU, and they have been largely ignored. And besides, if you want a Fleet Carrier, the Endurance is the ship for the job.

Edited by Zeta1127, 04 September 2010 - 07:07 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

I've crunched some numbers on the Republic-class shields and have settled on 4000 SBD being the "most" accurate between disparate stats systems. At max upgrade, that gives it 130% durability and 140% firepower compared to a Victory IV, but it's also physically larger by similar margins, so it's basically an upscaled VSD using most of the same aging technology. That fits with the Corona and Belarus.

On the other hand, the Nebula-class is pure state of the art. It's described as having more shielding than any known ship in the galaxy (for a destroyer, presumably). I've spotted it at 8000 SBD - literally 5/3 of an ISD and greater even than the MC90, which is 7680. On top of that, it would take 10 or 11 population compared to 13 for the Republic and 16 for the Imperial. It's a battlefield terror... no wonder the Remnant surrendered.

[Casen]

Much like the Lancer-class Frigate for the Empire, the Nebula-class Star Destroyer is a modern pinnacle of cost-effectiveness.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Lancer-class Frigate NON-cost effective?

http://starwars.wiki...r-class_frigate

The Imperial Starfleet found the Lancer-class too expensive for full fleet deployment. A few frigates made it into various fleets, but most admirals preferred to use, and subsequently lose, their TIE starfighters as anti-starfighter options. As a result, most Lancer-class frigates, like smaller ships before them, were assigned to planetary defense and rear guard operations.

[Phoenix Rising]

It costs a mere 4.76m - less than a DP20. Only a week of consumables though, so I'm guessing that's where the expenses come in.

Update: Republic now works out to 12090 in-game with complement.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 10 September 2010 - 10:02 PM.

[Tropical Bob]

The Imperial Starfleet found the Lancer-class too expensive for full fleet deployment. A few frigates made it into various fleets, but most admirals preferred to use, and subsequently lose, their TIE starfighters as anti-starfighter options. As a result, most Lancer-class frigates, like smaller ships before them, were assigned to planetary defense and rear guard operations.

It costs a mere 4.76m - less than a DP20. Only a week of consumables though, so I'm guessing that's where the expenses come in.

That's probably what I would say, as well, considering it mentions "full fleet deployment". If the Lancer was actually too expensive overall, it would say something to the effect of mass-production.

You'd think full fleet deployment would handle some sort of supply ship, or be able to transfer consumables from the larger ships, in order to sustain the Lancer. Guess it was just too much work for old-school Imperial admirals when they already had TIE Fighter screens available as part of their complement.

And whether or not the Lancer may be expensive overall, the reason behind it being cost-effective is it's ability to render starfighter attacks almost useless. I'd say preventing a K-wing bombing run on an Imperial-class's bridge, and saving the ship, would be worth having a Lancer on hand.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 11 September 2010 - 05:49 PM.