39 replies to this topic

[johnchm.10]

right so i know its probably a sensitive subject for some of us, but lets face it, its a question that has to be asked
in your own opinions, when did this much loved franchise of ours just say "that's all folks" to reality and just start going off the deep-end?

to clarify a little more, the games, movies, novels, etc will all be separated. like, you cant blame how a game turned out (i.e. controls, etc.) because of a book unless it introduced some major plot issue or whatever, etc.

for a little more clarification, given that there are more comics in the BBY Eras than books, you can use their real world release dates as a reference point, as my experience with the comics is rather limited,
when decrying a game, obviously you cant really pick on the lego games. other than that, go to town
for the books, you can either use the change-over in publishers, in-universe chronology, or by author
lastly: for the films, lets face it, theres no condoning whats been done with the prequels, but do try to be fair. example: don't blame the actors, blame the guys who pick the actors

for comics: i must admit that i didn't read many of the comics. just the X-wing comics, the Dark Empire Trilogy, Crimson Empire 1 and 2, as well as Union. out of all that, only issues i have are due to art direction, and that's more for the Dark Empire saga. I'm sorry, but im not used to seeing a face other than Mark Hamil's or something very similar as Luke Skywalker. aside from that, my expierence with the comics is rather limited, so ill let someone else tackle that monster

games: i could go on forever about, so ill keep it as short as i can: why we havent had a Jedi Knight, KOTOR (TOR IS NOT A SEQUEL!), Rogue Squadron, X-wing, Battlefront, or Republic Commando sequel is a crime. what do we have instead? the unnecessary Force Unleashed games, and more clone wars crap.

books: to be honest, i think the Chronological Peak was the Thrawn Trilogy (and Isards Revenge only because of chronology). between the end of Endor and the End of the Thrawn Crisis, you have the transformation of a militant group into a formal government, as well as its first crises: the road to Coruscant, dealing with Krytos, hunting down Isard and Zsinji, Warlords who seek to carve out their own empires (isard was setting herself as an new Emperor, despite her claims of stewardship) , and the emergence of an enemy who didnt really need to use superweapons to achieve his goals. he was doing fine even without the Katana Fleet, the Cloning Tech, the Cloak, and the mad Jedi Clone. on top of that we get some new characters who are cool, some established characters that get fleshed out and enhanced, a love interest for Luke, and Han and Leia finally end their dance, tie the knot, and have some kids, and we get some moments that are excellent in their own right. while thats not to say there werent flaws in some of the books, or that every book after Isard's Revenge is total crap, but the books have been inconsistent at times, like in the otherwise excellent Hand Of Thrawn duology. you mean to tell me that you only have a small force guarding a world of such influence as Bothawui? their world was practically a founding member of the New Republic. or in the Black Fleet Crisis. how is it that you had captured other Imperial Star Destroyers, strong-worlds, the GALACTIC CAPITOL, and only then, over a decade after Endor, do you capture documents pertaining to how big the Imperial Navy was at the time of Endor?

films: well, to keep it short, the prequels, a lot of the stuff was unnecessary. while Liam Nielson is a great actor,the character Qui-gon Jinn was not needed. Sam Jackson should have taken a larger role, and one where he would have kicked more a--, preferably saying "SAY WHAT AGAIN!" or some other line from one of his films. they didn't really need the whole trade federation blockading a planet of pacifists for no reason plot, or the lets go to the outer rim to get parts for our expensive ship, even though we need to go to the core, and the planets in the outer rim may not take the currency we use.

[Zeta1127]

Comics: I have virtually no experience with any of the comics, other than the fact I know they are out there, and many of the storylines seem interesting, particularly Dark Empire for foreshadowing Palpatine's backstory. I agree, art has been the only real problem with the comics as far as I know, but for a different reason. Until Fractalsponge helped retcon some many of the background ships from Dark Empire, most of the ships were unidentified classes, though there are still some inconsistencies, they are a lot better than they were.

Games: The lack of sequels for all of the great games, combined with mediocre games in general, is definitely the problem as I see it too.

Novels: The publishing change-over was definitely part of the problem, and most of the post-Thrawn Trilogy novels were rather mediocre. The X-wing series, the Thrawn Trilogy, the Black Fleet Crisis, and the Hand of Thrawn Duology were the best Bantam novels. The New Republic was so busy fighting every Imperial that managed to come out of the woodwork after Endor, so they didn't really have time or manpower to devote to finding such intel prior to the Black Fleet Crisis. The works of Timothy Zahn, James Luceno, Matthew Stover, and Karen Traviss, excluding anything from the Legacy era, seem to be the only bright spots of the Del Rey era, beside the Clone Wars novel series that bridged the gap between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith long before TCW was ever conceived.

Films: The Prequel Trilogy wasn't that bad, its not like the Original Trilogy was perfect either. Qui-Gon Jinn was more integral than one might think, a proper special edition of Revenge of the Sith will explain why, because some very crucial dialogue made it into the novelization, but not the film.

Edited by Zeta1127, 24 April 2012 - 06:51 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

I'd argue that the comics as a whole have gotten better over time, but that could have something to do with the medium taking itself more seriously in general. I didn't really collect the comic books themselves when they first came out - just the odd one here and there - but with a shortage of new material set in the GCW era, I've been focused on the comic omnibuses recently.

A lot of the '90s titles have a very disposable feel to them: poor story, uninteresting characters, absurd action, disregard for continuity, mediocre art. River of Chaos (1995) exemplifies the bad type.

I'd say since Stradley took over as Senior Editor (2002), Star Wars comics have been in a golden age: relevant, exciting, complex, vivid, and even subtly humorous on occasion. Princess... Warrior is as close to perfect as anything gets.

People, go check out the comics released in the past decade... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[smashedsaturn]

personally, chronologically, everything before 10BBY is crap, excluding KOTOR and outbound flight, the Chiss are interesting, and as a whole everything after the black-fleet crisis is crap, now there are some gems in the NJO books and the dark nest trilogy, but after that it's simply off the deep end.

Edited by smashedsaturn, 23 April 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[Solusar]

Comics: I've found most of the series that I have read, with the exception of Crimson Empire, to be pretty good. They've definitely improved over the years.

Books: There has been some really great stuff, and then there has been Fate of The Jedi. Also, everyone in GFFA has bruises all over their arms because of characters squeezing the crap out of one another.

Games: Like the books, there are some gems and some stinkers. To me, Empire at War was the last good SW game released.

Films: The actors weren't the problem. The script, the director and the people that didn't tell the truth were the problem.

[Nertea]

For me, it was when Jedi started being synonymous with Wizard.

Seemed that there was something interesting to me with the Force being well, a physical force, with physics-based effects, like moving things around and the logical extensions of those. The mental eftects were defined too. When the force started to be able to steal people's souls and turn lead into gold and stuff, it became a bit too much like magic to me - which I have no qualms about, I love fantasy, but... this was poorly written fantasy!

[Kitkun]

As I noted elsewhere, I stopped caring at the start of the Vong. But there were plenty of crazy elements well before that, just not so pervasive.

Another thing, ever notice how much the use of the Force is restrained in the movies? Even Yoda had to work at holding an X-Wing or a big stone column, and beyond that was limited to some extra speed/strength/foresight/visions, etc. Then you have the EU, where Luke can fly the Falcon and man all it's guns without touching the controls, Starkiller can pull an entire ISD down, and the Emperor can use Force Storms to destroy entire fleets.

[Phoenix Rising]

I guess I'd prefer Jedi to be more like Joruus C'baoth and less like battle droid target practice.

[Casen]

Everything George Lucas had a hand in since the special editions.

Honestly the worst is all the clone wars garbage, seriously. It's complete childish autism.

Edited by Kacen, 01 May 2012 - 01:03 PM.

[johnchm.10]

can you elaborate on "all the clone wars garbage"?

[Zeta1127]

I am pretty sure Kacen is referring to The Clone Wars (TCW), the CGI cartoon not the old Clone Wars shorts, something I also despise with a passion.

Edited by Zeta1127, 01 May 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[smashedsaturn]

make that three of us that hate TCW...So much potential... all wasted

[johnchm.10]

only 3? lol
i thought he might of meant the decision by LucasFilm, Arts. Licencing, et. al to focus on the clone wars

[Phoenix Rising]

There are so many things titled "Clone Wars" that I don't know what's what anymore.

[SpardaSon21]

Don't forget the Clone Wars video game.

[Casen]

Well objectively I hate everything to do with the prequels; it had a few good games, like Bounty Hounter and the 2002 Clone Wars game, which were objectively good as GAMES; however starting with the 2008 clone wars movie, the autism level has beyond skyrocketed to the point of it being impossible to accept. It is completely and utterly childish and pathetic.

To be frank nearly everything from 1999 on that was designed with official input from George Lucas I hate by association. I hate the prequels, they're objectively terrible movies (go to RedLetterMedia). I hate the David Wong art design. I hate the fact none of it remotely looks or feels like Star Wars other than a few things here and there, the entire thing has this air to it that feels "wrong".

So it is not even the movies, none of it is right. At all. It all feels terrible and it makes the entire Star Wars fandom look terrible.

The Yuuzhan Vong are nothing by comparison to the horror inflicted on SW by this crap. At least they're not childish, and I would argue that despite being out of place and "trying too hard" for lack of a better term, the execution was good/decent.

Edited by Kacen, 02 May 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[Zeta1127]

There are so many things titled "Clone Wars" that I don't know what's what anymore.

The only Clone Wars I hate is TCW and any material derived from it, with the exception of new things like the ships and vehicles.

Don't forget the Clone Wars video game.

I don't have to forget it, because I have never played it!

Kacen, I agree in general, except on the prequels, something I have said before in my TCW is EVIL! thread.

My disdain for TCW started with the Tantive IV dramatic reversal retcon combined with the Ryloth retcon, among many things stated in the above mentioned thread; basically any aspect that disregards the rest of the EU. I also don't like the way it doesn't use EU material like the Mandator I-class Star Dreadnought and the Victory I-class Star Destroyer. TCW hasn't reached the Foerost campaign, not that it would probably show the Foerost campaign anyway, since they would rather disregard the rest of the EU, instead of showing something interesting like a Mandator I in action. The only way I can reconcile TCW is its Republic propaganda.

Edited by Zeta1127, 02 May 2012 - 03:26 AM.

[Casen]

Kacen, I agree in general, except on the prequels, something I have said before in my TCW is EVIL! thread.

My disdain for TCW started with the Tantive IV dramatic reversal retcon combined with the Ryloth retcon, among many things stated in the above mentioned thread; basically any aspect that disregards the rest of the EU. I also don't like the way it doesn't use EU material like the Mandator I-class Star Dreadnought and the Victory I-class Star Destroyer. TCW hasn't reached the Foerost campaign, not that it would probably show the Foerost campaign anyway, since they would rather disregard the rest of the EU, instead of showing something interesting like a Mandator I in action. The only way I can reconcile TCW is its Republic propaganda.

Okay let me overall say that the complete retconning a lot of established facts in SW like Ryloth is genuinely annoying to me and I agree but let's be fair; that is relatively minor in comparison to how childish TCW is; beyond childish, beyond babyish, makes Star Wars look bad. Also if all your criticisms are based on overall continuity errors then how does that make us look? I might as well say the new Star Trek movie is terrible as a movie when it isn't.


Like I get it, right, we're total SW nerds. But in a case like Ryloth I mean GW didn't even have a hand in inventing Ryloth, did he? So it is rather understandable, it is still BAD he doesn't care about his fanbase, but it is understandable. Oh it irritates me but I don't expect him to follow every book religiously, I primarily expect him to not make crap and ruin Star Wars...well I don't expect that anymore, that's unrealistic.

Also the fact you seem to deny the prequels are bad movies shows a bias; I am not going to say they are good movies just because they are "Star Wars".

http://redlettermedi...kett/star-wars/

Edited by Kacen, 02 May 2012 - 04:10 AM.

[Zeta1127]

I can't stand Plinkett, he annoys me a lot, and might actually take him seriously if he talked in a normal voice. They aren't as bad as Plinkett makes them out to be.

[Casen]

I can't stand Plinkett, he annoys me a lot, and might actually take him seriously if he talked in a normal voice.

Plinkett is a GOD-TIER internet reviewer that somehow manages to be utterly hilarious and 100% correct on everything.

They aren't as bad as Plinkett makes them out to be.

Yes they are.