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Short film interviewing UK riot policemen


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#1 duke_Qa

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:16 AM

This might be more of a starter for Ash, but I found this movie/audio slideshow on the Guardian quite interesting.

Policing England's riots: 'I pray to God I never see anything like that again' - audio slideshow

Police officers from across the country describe their experience of tackling last year's riots.
Eight police forces allowed the Guardian and London School of Economics unprecedented access to officers
deployed on the front line during the disturbances as they battled to regain control of towns and cities across the country


It puts the officers in a sympathetic light and I don't mind that: They aren't the problem any more than the protests/protesters are the problem.

But, I do wonder if this is an example of the first coughs of a pretty bad cold. If our leaders aren't able to create jobs/an economy for the average people, the average people will do things like this. And if 1-2% of the UK started throwing bricks at the authorities, I'd loathe to be a police-officer.

Up here, people are starting to fear we are entering another phase of unease that we saw the first half of the last century. The Greek nazi-party that got 9% of the votes in the last election, incompetence from political leaders who worry more about their 4-year elections and special interest friends than their nation's well-being. Social knitting into small fanatical groups that can cause a lot of havoc if motivated enough. Being unemployed and with no good prospects for the future, can turn anyone into a barbarian horde.

All I can guess is that we'll be seeing much more domestic terrorism, radical political parties, and economic frustration. I could be wrong about blaming the economy/global politics for the UK riots of last year, but even if the rioters themselves didn't know why they were out in the streets, I think that was the main reason they were motivated for it.

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#2 Soul

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 03:54 PM

Truly these are troubling times, you think it's possible that things will get better anytime soon?
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#3 duke_Qa

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:08 PM

Not making jobs for the low-to-middle class is going to break the rich and powerful's "trickle-up" scheme.

Globalization is nice and all, but when every corporation out there thinks "I can do this cheaper in China", you create a job deficit for low-education workers. No matter ho high we think of ourselves, not everyone can be scientists, doctors, engineers or entrepeneurs. We will always have a large mass of mediocre people who, with blood and tears, might be capable of climbing into the middle-class. (At least they used to be).

And its not enough for the government to hand out money or create public jobs for everyone. The middle-man sells "Chinese" products for the same 100% price it would cost to make them here, but at a production cost of something like 95-75%. thats 5-25% of the cash you spent on your last TV straight into the pockets of a rich man, who is very good at finding loopholes in the tax-system and very good at taking that money with him to Cayman Islands or wherever else they keep their cash these days. Money lathed out of the local economy, replaced with loans.

Anyway, this wasn't supposed to be directly about the global economic voes, but I'd wager these lines are as close to the root of the tree of problems we are seeing today. The politicians might not have the balls to make enemies of the wealthy just yet, but if they don't the riots will continue to worsen, new radical political parties will manifest, and things will change in less foreseeable ways.

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#4 Ash

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:06 AM

Heh, and of course our glorious politicians aren't listening. Maybe when it's their homes and cars burning, but whilever it's the plebs vs the plebs, their fingers will be stuck firmly in their ears.


I couldn't help but note the other 'videos of interest' down the right hand side, trying to work out motivations. Resentment of the police apparently being key amongst them. Forgive me, but obviously criminals resent the police. There's every reason for them to do so, because cops are there to stop them getting away with what they'd like to. Why is their opinion even valid? They're criminals, they're scum and they should suffer. They should all suffer.

Normal Law-Abiding Joe, no matter how bad things become, won't end up doing this. The only times he starts fighting is if he's in a hooligan firm. Generally, good people don't do this sort of thing. Criminals do this sort of thing and that's exactly what happened. It started with some unrest about a shooting that a lot of people jumped on the bandwagon of. I know there are a couple of high-profile exceptions but the only people involved in these riots were already criminals before the riots happened. They weren't generally decent working folks who just got caught up in the moment...

#5 duke_Qa

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:32 AM

Cops beat low-class scum, rich people beat cops, so I'd guess low-class scum should beat rich people, to keep the rock-paper-scissors analogy going.

Didn't really see that many "cops are enemies" videos on the sidebar. But I guess that's what you get from the uneducated plebs on the floor. Nazis needed jews to blame for the economic situation Germany was dragged through back in the last century. Didn't get many new members with "multi-ethnic Western capitalist elites".

Even if they are criminals, wouldn't you say that their path was carved out in stone beforehand? Would 90% of them turn into criminals, if there was sufficient amount of jobs around for them to earn a honest living?

Edited by duke_Qa, 03 July 2012 - 09:36 AM.

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#6 Ash

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:47 PM

Yes, the vast majority would still turn into criminals.

Because their mums and dads are generally workless, feckless scrotes with an equal lack of care for their society. Because their entire familial ethos has been one of "the state will provide" for two generations, and because 'following in your father's footsteps' amounts to get expelled from school and start burgling houses for a living.

#7 duke_Qa

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 10:59 PM

I guess we are at different opinions about nurture and nature then. I suspect most of us expect the "State"/society to provide us with jobs. The culture of today assumes "everything works out as long as I get my cut". Sometimes you have to build more to get more.

Oh well, a clock that doesn't run is right twice per day. Criminals have a say once their situation becomes unbearable. Once you make a society where 10% or so are criminals, you are asking for trouble.

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#8 Ash

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:09 PM

Don't get me wrong, if you could get a newborn out of a scum house early enough you could maybe save it. But Mummy and Daddy Scrote are generally quite adept at gaming the system.

#9 duke_Qa

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:05 AM

Pity there are not enough adoptive parents to change people that way.

Anyway, I still think you are demonizing the wrong crowd. This is like saying the drug-addicts downtown are the root cause of all that is wrong in society. They are merely a symptom, the blood pouring from the stab-wound.

If people had a real chance at getting a okay job that earned them more money than what they get on the dole, I suspect they'd do their best to keep that job. And if society had plenty of okay jobs to put people at work with, the dole would be much harder to get your hands on as well. ("No job? there's tons of jobs out there that pays better than what you get here will. In fact, here's three for your perusing, don't come back here before you've been to an interview on all of them.").

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#10 Ash

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 04:34 PM

Duke, I used to think more or less the same as you however my sentiments on the matter have come to diverge somewhat in a few areas.

Pity there are not enough adoptive parents to change people that way.

Or social services with the power and authority to remove children - and the benefits provided for over-breeding - from scum. But they won't. So you get a generational thing - daddy is scum, son grows up seeing daddy be scum and sees that as the only available lifestyle. Assuming, of course, that they aren't heroin addicts the day they're born. To these people, being arrested is little more than an occupational hazard. I know people who have 70+ criminal convictions stemming back to when they were 17 years old. They are now in their 50s, and have served more prison time than I have been alive. And they are still committing crime.

Anyway, I still think you are demonizing the wrong crowd. This is like saying the drug-addicts downtown are the root cause of all that is wrong in society. They are merely a symptom, the blood pouring from the stab-wound.

They are the root cause of most of what's wrong in society. I know there's a hierarchy as someone has to supply them the drugs (this guy usually is otherwise decent, drives a land rover and lives somewhere really posh but has no obvious job), but it isn't the supplier who's breaking into folks' houses. The supplier himself keeps himself out of trouble. It's his bottom feeders who do all the damage and those to whom they supply.

The wrong approach is taken with addicts. Fuck methadone - just stick them in a cell for 6 months feeding them through a hatch and let the bastards go cold turkey. If we see them again, 12 months.

If people had a real chance at getting a okay job that earned them more money than what they get on the dole, I suspect they'd do their best to keep that job.

Most of those people don't want jobs because they've had it too easy on benefits. They feel hard done to because their benefits have been stopped. Imagine, if you will, a chick in a nest. Mouth open 'cheep cheep cheep - feed me feed me'. That's your average scum. Don't get me wrong - there are many decent people who are stuck in a rut on the dole. They don't go out committing crime - they jump through the hoops. Some do game the system a bit but the point is they aren't. committing. crime. All scum are unemployed, but not all unemployed are scum.

I ask you this - if two people with identical qualifications (i.e., none...) walked into your officer for a job interview doing...I dunno, pretty much any fucking job ever, and one had no convictions yet the other had previous for, well, any petty crime (assault, damage, theft/shoplifting), which would you pick? It's a no-brainer. And rightly so! Why would I employ someone so evidently untrustworthy? Particularly theft or damage, mind as they're a liability to the business. I'm not saying this is wrong - I'm saying that the majority of these people - particularly career criminals - are unemployable. They will never, ever, be able to find work even if they wanted to (and they don't - they'd have to not drink as much cider, get up pre-noon and actually make payments on that 50 inch plasma screen TV that seems to be endemic to every scumbag's dwelling). They will forever be a drain on society, whether it's to provide them dole and methadone, or in police investigation time, or for time spent at Her Majesty's pleasure.

And if society had plenty of okay jobs to put people at work with, the dole would be much harder to get your hands on as well. ("No job? there's tons of jobs out there that pays better than what you get here will. In fact, here's three for your perusing, don't come back here before you've been to an interview on all of them.").

Getting an interview isn't easy - it wasn't for me when I was on the dole, and I have a university degree and a touch of workaholism. I applied to the sort of part-time shop jobs (i.e., jobs that were realistically 'beneath me') I was doing when I was still studying for my A-levels (16-18y/o) because that was all I could do, and none so much as sent out a rejection letter. Thing is about employing people is it's a buyer's market. However all the same as I said before not everyone who signs on goes out smashing people's houses up (typically shit-on-shit), beating folk up in a drunken set-to, mugging or burgling folk etc. Don't think the people I'm referring to are hard-done-to...they often have more disposable income than most workers because they're all but tax exempt. They always seem to have recycling boxes full of empty beer cans and cider bottles...


Just for example, allow me to describe, in some detail, your average scrotey house. Or better yet, allow me to describe what is these days quite a typical police matter:

You receive a call over the radio. "Uniform Charlie Two Four, can you attend 21 Smith Street, female reporting her ex-partner posting threats on Facebook."
With a sigh and a shrug, particularly upon reading the initial call (which has been transcribed and e-mailed to your work phone), you agree to attend. You've dealt with this particular female a dozen times, particularly with relation to that same ex-partner with whom she has had numerous drunken arguments. Only a week or two ago you attended and they weren't even ex-partners. "Yeah, roger that, I'm just turning onto Smith Street now, as it happens."
Smith Street itself is a council estate. Bright red brick houses from circa 1945, the majority of which appear to have received little or no maintenance. There are no driveways, despite each house having ample front garden room. The pavement has been dug up and patched countless times; the asphalt comes in approximately seven shades, with chunks missing and lying scattered about the pavement. Dandelions and other weeds have staked their claim to the gutters of the roads and you can see they're well on their way to eating into the kerb-edge. The uniformly brick garden walls are just as ridden, with many having bricks missing or simply having had huge sections fall (or be knocked) free. These sections sit in the front gardens, where they've sat ever since they came off. A few have collapsed so badly they can scarcely be recognised as a wall, save for the top of a bare brick sitting at below pavement-level. You hear a few dogs barking as you weave your police car to avoid yet another lump of concrete, still more potholes and a 2x4 that has just been left sitting in the middle of the roadway. You note the occasional car, one of which is missing a wing mirror. Another is missing a rear-three-quarter window. Its owner has 'repaired' it with a black bin liner secured with masking tape.

You exit your vehicle and take another look, counting up the addresses to 21. The houses bear many cracks and most of the doors are old wooden things with big muddy bootprints all down the bottom half. A couple have little glass features which are all grimy and fogged up. Ceiling tiles litter the gardens nearest the houses and a few houses stand completely without any form of guttering. With the exception of maybe one or two houses, all the gardens are wildly overgrown - more jungle than feature - and the only disruption to the two-foot high palisade of dandelion, hemlock, thisle and yarrow are the aforementioned chunks of wall, children's toys which probably haven't been touched by a child in about three years, a plastic dog bowl or two which contains nothing but green, mossy, stagnant rainwater and, in one garden, an old sofa, its upholstery fading and turning black from mould and decay. A faint aroma of cannabis from the street. You make a mental note to submit a report of which house you passed when it smelled strongest to you.

You breathe a sigh of relief as you reach 21, as you note that the route from pavement to house is lined with paving slabs. Uneven, yes, and the front gate is completely off its hinges, held upright by a threadbare old shoelace, but at least you aren't trudging through the wilderness. You aren't completely safe yet, though - you regret having taken an inward breath for that sigh you sighed as your nostrils are assaulted by the smell of dog shit. You almost put your boot in it as you walk down the path but you sidestep at the last possible moment. You see a children's kiddy-car with pieces of plastic missing and clearly irreparable - one wheel is lying in the gutter-grate.

You knock politely on the front door, which you think used to be white. It hasn't been white in about eight years and the paint is peeling away quite profusely. The doorframe actually moves a little as you knock on it and then you notice the clear tape holding even that in place. You hear a big dog barking and can hear its paws skittering across woodwork toward you, but you get no reply. A shred of hope! You knock again before reaching into the pocket of your stab vest for a calling card (we can't just leave these things - we have to invite people to recontact. If they don't call back another bobby will inevitably be sent back there later). This time, you hear 'thump thump thump' of shoes on wooden flooring and then the door opens, nearly taking the doorframe with it.

You see a short woman who is clearly younger than she looks, with hair so knotted, scraggly and unkempt the only way to rescue it would be to shave it all off and start again. Her face is gaunt and yellowed, and her skin is clearly blotchy. Worse, she's answered the door in her nightie, dressing gown and a pair of slippers so you are met with a sight you really didn't want to see. Her eyes are yellowed and glazed and in her right hand she holds a half-smoked cigarette. You already knew she smoked - even if you hadn't seen the 500 tab-ends littering the front curtledge you are fraternising with the Underclass - they always smoke. Her hand shakes as she lets go of the door and steps back for you.
"Come on in, love," she says, taking another drag on her cigarette. A lifelong non-smoker, you politely hold your breath for a second while the cloud of smoke disperses around you.

You step over the threshold, and then it hits you for the umpteenth time today. The Smell. A stale and potent concoction of stale fag smoke, old dog shit and chip fat. Most of the houses you go to have the very same smell. A pudgy Staffordshire bull-terrier jumps up at you, putting pawprints on your pristinely-pressed black trousers that you only hope is dirt from the garden. You shove it back with a knee, and it has another go. "Don't worry he won't hurt you," she says, before shouting and admonishing the dog.

You take a moment to wipe your knees and look around. The walls that aren't plastered are just bare brick, and none have ever been brooked by the threat of being painted or wallpapered. There's no carpet on the floor or even laminate/linoleum, just bare floorboards throughout. The majority of the cupboards are missing or falling off in the kitchen, which is where the woman leads you as she's corralling the dog behind a baby-gate. A dining room table is completely buried in piles - or more correctly, heaps - of clothing. You aren't sure if that's the clean pile, or the pile waiting to be washed. One thing's for sure, though, the iron clearly doesn't work. You're still breathing shallowly because of The Smell. Your nose usually becomes desensitised to smells after so long of exposure so it can concentrate on new ones. Not so with The Smell. This smell is so putrid it's only your strong constitution (and familiarity with The Smell) that keeps you from barfing. The walls of the kitchen are discoloured and spattered with various reds, oranges and yellows and empty takeaway wrappers litter the worktops. The sink is brim-full of unwashed dishes and pots and the bin hasn't been emptied in what looks (and smells) like weeks. The lady is conscious about the wider environment, though; her recycling bin is full of empty cans of Oranjeboom lager and crushed plastic bottles of Betterbuy cider. Some of these bottles and cans have gone rogue, though, scattering about the various flat surfaces around the kitchen and living room. You also see a small half-empty green medicine bottle, and you know she's on methadone. "Do you want a cup of tea, love?" she asks. You decline, politely.

You hear a screech of a hungry eighteen-month-old child from the living room at the other side of the house. She comes running in wearing nothing but her nappy, gnawing on the teat of her empty bottle. Her hair is only slightly less dissheveled than her mother's, but at least she has an excuse. She seems happy enough, in spite of the fact that half her toys are obviously broken and the other half are lying on a floor that is not only uncarpeted but also littered with empty crisp packets and drinks cartons and huge clumps of hair float like tumbleweeds as they're disturbed by your movement. You ache longingly for the overgrown garden as the female moves towards a pile of paperwork on a moth-eaten armchair. Much of the correspondence is letterheaded as being from HM Revenue and Customs, the local council, the local rehab clinic and the Department of Work and Pensions, and she dutifully shoves it into another heap on the floor and invites you to sit down, "Sorry about the mess," she says. "Don't worry about it," you say. You perch precariously on the edge of the seat, not from your excitement and enthusiasm to deal with the job but to minimise the amount of your precious arse actually touching this haven of vileness. Your head glances sideways to the brand new Samsung 50 inch TV sitting in the corner of the living room, juxtaposed totally against the rest of the decor save for the fact there's a layer of dust on it so thick you struggle to make out that the outer casing was black, and the screen is tinged slightly yellow from the cigarette smoke clinging to it. Spots of mildew and damp show through the corner of the wall immediately behind the telly, gratefully masked by the showing of Jeremy Kyle. The volume of the broadcast remains unchanged despite your presence in her home to speak to her.

In between intermittently playing with and shouting at the child in response to its incessant screeching and throwing toys around the female relays the crime of the century. Her on-off ex with whom she made a split last week (and who fathered the screeching infant) has posted some private Facebook messages which she says are threatening. You ask if she would like you to go around and have a word, she says this isn't good enough because he's previously done things. That's right, folks - an internet flame war is actually a police matter for which people could potentially be arrested. You ask to see the messages. The worst he's said is that she is a "fucking slag" - a sentiment which would not even necessarily constitute slander as far as you can determine, but that's a civil matter not a police one in any case - and that he wishes he'd never met her. She has replied with equal venom and as mention of 'court' and 'social services' have batted around in the exchange it is now quite clear to you why you're really there - to make him look bad for the purposes.

You admonish her for her participation in the exchange, and advise to block him on Facebook. "But he'll just register with another account and carry on!" she pleads, conveniently forgetting that he could already do that anyway, and it's not exactly beyond the realms that she could block him again and again. She tries to pull a rabbit out of the hat saying that the argument spilled onto SMS messages, in the hope you will then spring into action. "Change your number," you offer, to which she replies, "but I shouldn't have to do that."

You do the only thing you can do at this point. You ponder, "what would Captain Picard do?" Then you facepalm. You tell her that there are no criminal offences and there's nothing threatening. Short of advising him not to contact, your options are nonexistent. She sighs and tells you that you're not bothered about her, and how when he comes around kicking off it'll be your fault, and how it'll take her being beat up "again" before the police will do anythng. She cries crocodile tears. The child is still screeching hysterically. You tell her that's all you can offer, take some details of all parties involved for the mandatory Domestic Violence report (bear in mind nobody's been injured or attacked, and this has been nothing more than an e-row. They haven't even seen eachother since they split up!) that you have to submit if two fuckbuddies so much as look at one another funny, then you leave, remembering to dodge that brown landmine on the path back up to your car. You think you'll have five minutes drive-around before you write the job off and say you're available for another one. Which will probably be much the same. You can still smell The Smell deep in your nostrils and in any case you want to clean the pawprints off your trousers.


Just an example of what we do. A vast majority of what we do, when we're not doing paperwork. And there are real people out there with real problems, but we're swamped with calls like these! This is not an uncommon street, house or job.

#11 duke_Qa

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:26 AM

As a farmboy and a "social-democrat" I got a bit of a pragmatic outlook to my ideology. It's a nice story about human downfall. And barring some sort of scientific miracle that helps us solve all our problems tomorrow, there is something like a 0,005% chance that such persons will become productive members of society.

They have created their characters, and the amount of work it would take to rewrite them is near-insurmountable. Easier to let them rot and die than to spend energy trying to reform them. Change the system and let them adapt instead of adapting the system to them. Put a bureaucratic bolt-gun to their foreheads and start over with the next generation.

But the lower class scum is not society's main problem today. They are a consequence and they will probably be around for hundreds of years to come, so you will be able to smell the Smell until you retire, and then some.
The problem is when you make a society that pulls middle-class citizens into the lower-class for the upper-class's wealth: That's when you start getting competent and angry people breaking into houses, robbing banks, arranging riots, extremist political views, bombmakers, assassinations and so on. And the worst part is that they will have more popular support than the elites running the country. Middle class people will do their very best to make life a living hell for you guys, and that will be a much bigger challenge than what these useless bottom feeders will ever be able to do.

Anyway, nice story. I'd say 60% of humanity lives about in the same way as that woman there. I think that tells us more about our priorities as a species than their lives as members of it.

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#12 Ash

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:07 AM

As a farmboy and a "social-democrat" I got a bit of a pragmatic outlook to my ideology. It's a nice story about human downfall. And barring some sort of scientific miracle that helps us solve all our problems tomorrow, there is something like a 0,005% chance that such persons will become productive members of society.

Point I'm tryin to make, Duke, is you can't polish a turd. Or, more correctly, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be. This lady doesn't want our help. Not really. She wants to game the system. By the way, I have of course notified social services about her - they don't really want to know, either.

They have created their characters, and the amount of work it would take to rewrite them is near-insurmountable. Easier to let them rot and die than to spend energy trying to reform them. Change the system and let them adapt instead of adapting the system to them. Put a bureaucratic bolt-gun to their foreheads and start over with the next generation.

They aren't going away, though. You would really have to let them die for real for the problem to go away. I'm unsure which direction you're advocating, here; on the one hand you are of the opinion that there's no such thing as a lost cause then on the other you are in favour of letting them wither on the vine. Which is certainly what we'd prefer!

But the lower class scum is not society's main problem today. They are a consequence and they will probably be around for hundreds of years to come, so you will be able to smell the Smell until you retire, and then some.

I imagine my colleagues and former colleagues of bygone days smelled The Smell since the days of Robert Peel. :p

The problem is when you make a society that pulls middle-class citizens into the lower-class for the upper-class's wealth: That's when you start getting competent and angry people breaking into houses, robbing banks, arranging riots, extremist political views, bombmakers, assassinations and so on.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you on this one. The vast majority of the people police deal with, they've been dealing with for the majority of their lives. And they were dealing with their fathers before them. Your average burglar, though, hasn't done just one job before he got caught (at least, not later into his career when he becomes 'better' at it, i.e, more skilled at breaking and entering, more forensically aware). These people aren't incompetent. They're perfectly competent people. They exist as part of the Underclass which seems from my understanding to operate by a different set of social norms than the rest of us. I also think you're lumping religious extremists and political wackjobs in with your proper criminals (not saying terrorists aren't proper criminals, just trying to draw a distinction between the ilk who commit crime almost as their variant of paid work, and those who commit a crime that is ideological or extreme - an example from your own country, Anders Breivik, isn't a 'proper' criminal in the sense to which I refer - he's an ideological wackjob). Burglars don't screw your house because of some communistic/Robin Hood-esque belief about the evils of property ownership or any sort of sense of 'Haves and Have-nots'. They screw your house because they either a) are part of a crime group who can make money off it, or b) are drug users for whom the cost of feeding the habit has exceeded their (un)earned income. That's the vast majority at least. The London rioters last year were just common criminals with a herd mentality. At the outside they were gangbangers who saw an opportunity to attack the cops but most were just happy for a lawless glut. Riots, whatever their motivation normally are a result of a herd mentality. They behave and act like animals because they've basically turned into them in their head.

And the worst part is that they will have more popular support than the elites running the country. Middle class people will do their very best to make life a living hell for you guys, and that will be a much bigger challenge than what these useless bottom feeders will ever be able to do.

Nobody will ever give any sort of popular support to the house-breaker or thief, so you won't get an ideological burglar. If middle class people are guilty of anything - or are likely to be - it's apathy. They won't turn to crime because they have been brought up better.

#13 duke_Qa

duke_Qa

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 03:49 PM

Point I'm tryin to make, Duke, is you can't polish a turd. Or, more correctly, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be. This lady doesn't want our help. Not really. She wants to game the system.

As she was taught to do by her kin.

The only way to get someone out of a life like that is to euthanize the memetics/the cultural inheritance. Only way to get that one out is through total isolation from their ancestors. Not many good ways of doing that, the Nazis went for sterilization of criminals (and others of course) to nip the problem in the bud. At best we could create a social-services system that has the right to apprehend children and keep them away from any contact and communication with all relatives and giving them a proper childhood/education. Still, declaring that someone is to never see their family ever again is something that won't happen this century.

They aren't going away, though. You would really have to let them die for real for the problem to go away. I'm unsure which direction you're advocating, here; on the one hand you are of the opinion that there's no such thing as a lost cause then on the other you are in favour of letting them wither on the vine. Which is certainly what we'd prefer!


As mentioned above, as long as we are politically unable to intervene, there will always be groups of people living life in hell. When I say bolt-gun I was thinking cutting their welfare and taking away their children or whatnot after a certain amount of scum-points has been aquired(10 years of irresponsible behaviour, criminal records, bad parenting). But it wouldn't be enough to take their money and children, because that would leave a nut with nothing to live for but making a living hell for others.

But, the government most likely have calculated the cost; keeping them on welfare vs the cost of having them in prison for short terms and the collateral damage inflicted. The only option would be to restrict their freedom, psychological institutions / prison-lite.

I doubt any society could afford keeping 2-5% of its population entombed for being apathic scum(Oh wait, America does that :p). The PR drain would be a black hole alone, lawsuits from former incarcerated members...


These people aren't incompetent. They're perfectly competent people. They exist as part of the Underclass which seems from my understanding to operate by a different set of social norms than the rest of us. I also think you're lumping religious extremists and political wackjobs in with your proper criminals


They might be competent, but they are apathic until its an emergency.

The London rioters last year were just common criminals with a herd mentality. At the outside they were gangbangers who saw an opportunity to attack the cops but most were just happy for a lawless glut. Riots, whatever their motivation normally are a result of a herd mentality. They behave and act like animals because they've basically turned into them in their head.


I'd say the London riots were more than your average criminals going ballistic. The economic situation we are in these days, combined with the perceived hopeless future for the lower-middle class at maintaining their position on the ladder(student loans, lack of well-paying jobs...), instigated the situation up to something bigger than your average riot. How many of those arrested had no criminal records? I suspect it was like 10% because they were newbs at crime. But the important bit is that its probably a massive imbalance compared to what your average riot has. It might have been a herd of animals, but I'm sure that herd was much angrier than what it would have been in a economic stable time.

Sure, the majority of those out in the streets that day were part of your scum-group. They are wolves, they prefer to hunt in packs. And once people beyond the lower-class decide its time to roam, the pack gets big.


Nobody will ever give any sort of popular support to the house-breaker or thief, so you won't get an ideological burglar. If middle class people are guilty of anything - or are likely to be - it's apathy. They won't turn to crime because they have been brought up better.


As mentioned above, going from middle class to lower class for someone who didn't deserve it and doesn't accept it, is like the fall of Lucifer. Think Breaking Bad(not that I've seen that show yet, but I suspect that is pretty close to what I'm thinking about). If the world economy keeps going in the neo-liberal direction it has the last 30 years, we will see more and more people fall out of the middle class. If they consider themselves badly treated Lucifers or just apathic losers doesn't matter much, they were in the middle class and now have to find a new way to make a living. More ambition = more trouble

"I give you private information on corporations for free and I'm a villain. Mark Zuckerberg gives your private information to corporations for money and he's 'Man of the Year.'" - Assange





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