20 replies to this topic

[johnchm.10]

so, i was thinking that since pretty much everything non-movie related is considered Non-Canon from now on, that the PR team can take some liberties with regards to weapons and ships added in game

 

Land

 

Troops
 

A while ago, in a forum post elsewhere on this site, A Fake Name and I discussed the idea of having composite platoons, that is to say, platoons of men armed with different weapons to add flexibility, and more recently, the E-web has been brought up.

I am going to combine the two ideas

 

the Imperial Army is not dissimilar to a real world army like that of the US, UK, and other allied or first-world nations, albeit with technological advances rendering some weapons obsolete like the Sub Machine Gun. Im going to stick with them because they're an actual army and not a resistance movement

 

what i am proposing is that we use real world units as an example of how to equip troops and platoons to add flexibility and variety to the game, and make it more fun.

 

I was thinking of using the US Army's Table of Organization and Equipment for platoon-sized units, and adapting it for the SW universe, we can get some nice variety and not have to spam Troopers or Missileers to win Ground Battles.

 

the Army recently adopted a new system for their Stryker Brigade Combat Team which I feel is a good example of how this would work. that and the Marines have adopted what is basically a modified rifle as their new Machine Gun

not including vehicle drivers and commanders, you have the following (parenthesis will show how this would be simulated in-game)

 

Headquarters detachment

 

Platoon Commander (low level officer. figure passive enhanced scanning radius, and active focus firepower and some kind of morale boosting 

 

Platoon Sergeant (slightly stronger than usual stats of a regular Sergeant. active morale boost ability)

 

Radio/Telephone Operator (scout-type unit. figure that the ability would be enhanced view radius as a passive, Scan Area as an active ability)

 

Forward Observer (as above)

 

Medic (like you have to ask)

 

Rifle Squads: 3 per Platoon

 

Squad Leader (regular sergeant. focus firepower of his squad only.)

 

Fireteam Leaders: 2 per squad: (given the mechanics of the game, these would just be regular troopers)

 

Grenader: 2 per squad: (okay, unless you've fixed the severe range restriction with the grenades, i would suggest using a really weak rocket or a charged blast type ability to simulate a 40mm grenade. active ability would be to use the grenade launcher)

 

Automatic Riflemen: 2 per squad: armed with a Light Repeating Blaster (abilities would be suppressive fire as an active. faster rate of fire as a passive)

 

Specialist: 2 per squad. 1 with a rocket launcher and M4A1 Carbine, and the other with a Semi-auto Marksman Rifle. (switch weapons as an active ability. passive would be increased range for the Marksman)

 

Weapons Squad

 

Squad Leader: See above

 

Machine Gunner: 2 per squad. unless you could find an M60/M240/L7 equivalent you could give these guys E-webs. (treat him as a man-equivalent of an Artillery piece. have him set up the gun so it can be used)

 

Assistant Gunner: 2 per squad (IRL, he carries some parts of the MG like the tripod if issued, as well as a spare barrel or 2, and some ammo for the MG. in-mod, he would be the close in defense for the M-G'er when moving throughout the battlefield)
 

Ammo Bearer: 2 per squad. (take a guess) (see above)

 

 

in short, we would go from having 40 guys armed with really only rifles to:

19/31 guys with rifles (19 when alternate weapons are deployed)

6-8 machine guns (6 if the E-web's aren't up)

0-6 grenadiers (or light rocketmen)

0-3 Rocketeers

0-3 light snipers

 

even if you don't give these guys vehicle support, that's still a lot of firepower for 39 guys

 

and in theory, you could modify the loadouts of the non riflemen in the rifle squads for more specific purposes. you could swap out the 3 sniper rifles and 6 automatic rifles for additional rocket launchers, making for a total of 12 rocketeers, or swapping out the rocketeers and snipers for additional auto-riflemen, if you know that the enemy has no heavy vehicle support, or swap out all the rocketeers and auto-riflemen for squad marksmen (albeit with more powerful rifles) if you so choose, or even swapping out the E-web squad for an additional rifle squad if you don't expect to be stationary for any length of time 

 

 

 

                                Type of Platoon

Type of soldier         Standard          Anti-Armor          Sniper          Anti-Personnel          Assault

Riflemen*                 19                     19                       19                19                             17     

Auto Riflemen            6                       0                         0                12                              8

Grenadiers                6                       6                         6                  6                              8

Rocketeers                3                     12                         0                 0                              4

Marksmen                 3                        0                       12                 0                              4

E-Web Teams           2                       2                          2                2                              0

* includes command staff

 

 

 

 

idea 2: 

 

if possible, instead of upgrading the platoons, upgrading the troopers making up that platoon.

Abilities upgrades

Weapon upgrades

Health/Armor upgrades

Movement/Speed Upgrades

Range Upgrades

E-web upgrades

[P.O._210877]

I once approached PR with something like this, what he told me is that you can't mix different unit types in a container (the squad in this case). IIRC the engine only processes damage based on a one unit type = one weapon type basis. I'm a little foggy on the details, it's been a while and I haven't modded the game since 2012 or so. Still, maybe with a LUA script...

 

Any of you guys on the team can clarify this issue?

[a.fake.name]

Could you set it so the platoon commander just spawns the desired composition as his escort when appearing on the map ?

[P.O._210877]

I remember we discussed this as well, the obvious problem here is that all it takes to wipe a full platoon, company, etc. is to eliminate 1 unit and there's also a case to be made about the respawning of killed troops after the battle if the leader survives.

 

Personally I wanted to arrange the buildable units to mirror the different Orders of Battle in the GFFA. I always thought that one of the stronger points about West End Games' Imperial and Rebel Alliance Sourcebooks were how the OBs were fleshed-out in so much details.

 

But hey, if anyone here wants to experiment with the concept, go ahead. Who knows which way the wind'll blow when the time comes to expand the units roster?

 

Btw, what you guys say and bring forth on the forums isn't empty of meaning, the team takes note of your ideas and comments. The thing is that there's just no time for them to live their lives, work on the mod and be super active on the forums. Note, I'm writing this of my own initiative, I just felt like the community should know it's inputs are important even if rarely commented upon in an official manner.

 

So to all, take care and continue to show your support and appreciation; it IS the only external reward that anyone working on the game has, and it's really what motivates all that hard work.

[skie9173]

I really like the platoon concept, but for above stated reasons idk if the engine would work with it. If anyone can figure out a work around, it's the PR team.

Question: can their be building of units via a capturable building for invasion forces during a land battle? Could there be a custom "Field HQ" or "Foothold" building that let's a player organize (read- build) platoon like forces during an invasion. These forces can be dependent on players available commanders or vessels in orbit? Having a Neb-B in orbit lets you organize an Army Platoon, but having an Imp-Class in Orbison lets you organize a Stromtropper Platoon, or Assualt Vehical platoon?

Yeah that's convoluted... Idk just a thought. MAybe someone else can refine or simplify it, but I doubt that's possible.

Inspiration form the idea about cap ships building compliment on a per skirmish mission.


I've always wondered if a modified WH40K:Dawn of War type engine could do SW ground battles decently.

Edited by skie9173, 13 June 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[a.fake.name]

Ok guys if the team thinks implementing this as mentioned so far will be harder, then prehaps we should think of a new way to do it.

Here's my idea: totally re-orginize ground units.

If it's infantry, it comes from the barracks, period.
Add E-Web crews and other stuff mentioned above as buildable units.

However, here is how I recomend we fix it: build size.
If you build a normal infantry group ingame, you get four squads.
However if you just set it to have more squads and rename it a company or batallion sized element, that means with a single space took up you get to throw a lot more units into the battle.
(edit: to clarify, this means you could toss a large group of infantry to defend a planet with just taking up one of ten unit slots for the garrison.)

For the Elite barracks, I say scrap it.
Seems silly to have just a handful of infantry types (currently anyway) with two buildings.

Edited by a.fake.name, 14 June 2014 - 01:53 AM.

[ashiruni]

The easist way to handle something like this, imo, is to drop four squads or so with standard infantry and take out missile troopers. Then, for each unit of standard infantry you drop, one of those squads is a squad of plex troopers. So, in other words, when you drop your infantry you get three normal infantry squads and one squad of plex troopers. It doesn't quite equate proper Order of Battle or US military orgaizational protocols, but it's roughly equivalent to having one heavy weapons trooper per squad. Since the squad is independent of the normal infantry, you can also still make them target vehicles, rather than wasting their time trying to kill infantry when there's an AT-AT barreling down on them. If you want to be particularly facetious about it, you can also make and drop an e-web squad as well (the guys who made the Steiner's Advanced Units mod [Linky] did a really good job of those).

 

As for the imperial side of things, it's probably easier just to give storm troopers a powered down version of the thermal detonator ability (balanced so that the entire squad roughly equates the standard ability). It's lore appropriate and it's substantially easier than trying to model a plex-wielding storm trooper for the imps. For imperial army units, a quick & dirty reskin of the rebel plex trooper and a similar distribution to the rebel units might be the best way to handle it.

 

To handle it as the OP suggests, it'd be a real pain in the butt from a game mechanic standpoint. The only way I can see to pull it off would be to make a hero unit for every single type of soldier listed, then drop them all at once from the transport, and script it so that the whole shebang counts as a single unit by the pop cap (probably by having the commander take up a single pop point while the rest of the group is free). As for controlling those units, it'd also add an entirely new layer of difficulty to ground maps, as rather than just your generic 'infantry swarm' you'd have a half-dozen different types of infantry to manage and they'd be scattered across your deployment zone even more than infantry tend to scatter now. Ironically, that's realistic, but it's also problematic from a game mechanic standpoint.

[a.fake.name]

To make my previous suggestion more concise:

Infantry upgrades unlock the option to buy elements that contain more than four squads.
It was said above selectable units cannot contain different units.
Then you could just make it so you produce single selectable infantry units with a larger number of men in them, or have that unit spawn more than four squads, or both.

Also I'm pretty sure I've seen some of the neutral world land garrisons pull it off with a few types of merc squad so it may be doable.

[moddinman]

An e-web squad would definitely be a nice addition. 

[P.O._210877]

I have a feeling it'll be included in the future. And it's just as I said, it's my opinion and not inside info.

[johnchm.10]

It would seem that this guy found a way to mix up platoons. Unless he just changed some skins http://www.moddb.com...dated-unit-list

[a.fake.name]

It'd be intresting to make the four squads just contain larger numbers of units.
Have it go from platoon to company to battalion to brigade strengths.
Then just used basic combined arms doctrine, and support the infantry with whatever works best in the situation at hand.

[megabalta]

There are numerous mods that have mixed platoons in them, starting with Awakening of the rebellion. It's not even hard to do.

I've made a design concept about what I felt the proper (and canon) mix of units several months ago called the "battalion unit simulation system", you can check it out here. Note that it does not multiply the number of units on the battlefield, a line battalion is simulated by 4 line squads in a land battle, it's only designed to make unit formations more diverse thus useful.

Edited by megabalta, 02 July 2014 - 09:47 AM.

[johnchm.10]

Ok, so million $ question. Why isnt it in pr?

[evilbobthebob]

Because it's not part of how we want infantry combat to function, simple as that. While we value player input, this mod is not design-by-committee.

[a.fake.name]

Ok, so million $ question. Why isnt it in pr?

I agree.
The basic four group deployment of infantry could VERY easily, using this new info, be setup to emulate company or batallion strength elements, just mix in a few guys with plex missiles (or ions for the imps), and a few more guys with grenade launchers on their weapons, (all as part of giving upgrades more purpose) and you suddenly have a unit with mixed arms, which happens to be how weapons are issued in real militaries

[abesinay]

So I don't know how everyone feels about but has anyone seen or played a mod with the individual soldier = unit mechanic? An example being how infantry is handled in the Clone Wars mod.

 

I really liked playing with that set up, it allowed me to make use of every trooper as I saw fit and place them on the terrain in such a way that they were perfectly covered by a hill or rock but still able to shoot over it. Made the whole thing incredibly immersive and fun. I could take on an entire CIS invasion force because I placed the infantry jussssst right so that they took very little casualties. It also allowed me to create my own custom squads with as many normal troopers, medics, grenadiers, heros, etc. how I saw fit and deploy them as such. I never really liked the pre-fab squad style to begin with. It's not particularly realistic and it doesn't allow you to micromanage the units very well. It also restricts what you can do with terrain.

 

Just food for thought, but would be a cool feature imo. Especially with the attention to detail given by the PR team.

[megabalta]

Micro-manage is very very accurate word to describe what would happen if a single soldier could be selected.

[johnchm.10]

Galactic Battlegrounds anyone?

[a.fake.name]

That would only sound fun if they were also set to not be capable of taking off on their own.
Otherwise the AI is sure to make it suck for you.