30 replies to this topic

[johnchm.10]

So, there seems to be some issues that we have with golans. Primarily their ineffectiveness against fighters. There are 3 ways to solve this. Allocate some ships to their defense, alter their compliments, or add/replace some of her armaments. The first method seems like it removes the point of having the golans, while the third will take a lot of time and effort to deal with. And as it happens, I've got what I feel is a good system for this.
Part 1. Rebel golan 1s get 1 wing of 3 squadrons of fighters. Rebel golan 2s get 2 wings for a total of 6 squadrons, and rebel golan 3s get a third wing for a total of 9 squadrons of fighters. Anything morr than 9 squadrons risks bringing too much lag into the game.
Part 2. Golans are designed to take on capital ships. Imo, their compliments don't need to be similarly equipped. To me this means headhunters and a-wings. Their missiles allow them to deal with small craft very effectively. Based on their tech level, I have the compliments as the following: golan 1: z95af4, z95af5, rz1mk1, rz1mk2, rz1mk3. Golan 2: z95af5, rz1mk1, rz1mk2, rz1mk3, rz1mk4. Golan 3: rz1mk1, rz1mk2, rz1mk3, rz1mk4, rz1mk5.
You can swap these out for star chasers or have composite wings. This is just how I have it set up.
Part 3. Since imperial fighter wings are larger, and their fighters less well armed, their golans get 6, 12, and 12 squadrons of fighters for golans 1, 2, and 3 respectively. I don't want to add more because of lag. They get the following compliments. G1: tie/ln, tie/ln x2, tie/ln x3, tie/in, tie/in x2. G2: tie/ln x2, tie/ln x3, tie/in, tie/in x2, tie/in x3. G3: tie/in, tie/in x2, tie/in x3, tie/av, tie/av x2. As an aside, since the ties lack missiles, shields, hyperdrives, and the like, you don't need as much space on the station to store fighter consumables. This might not seem like a big deal, but it is, trust me.

Edited by johnchm.10, 16 July 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[megabalta]

There might be a fourth solution, or at least something to help. It's not really about the golans, more like all large space vessels. 

If you are familiar with Awakening of the Rebellion mod, you might have noticed that turbolasers double as flak cannons. After a turbolaser shot reaches maximum range it blows up upon its death, causing some splash damage. This (maybe combined with barrage ability for some units) could be effective to protect a turbolaser only ship/station against bombers -if used correctly- to some degree. It's only semicanon, but it could make space battles a lot more interesting. 

[Aizen Teppa]

I think we should expand 'canon' but not go straight into (from lack of better word) insanity of turbo-lasers downing fighters. With lucky shot yes, should be possible but only in such situation. And [..........cut............] - sorry wanted to apply real life physics to SW yet again, my bad  .

 

I like the idea of 'barrage area'. It will be useful against smaller ships trying to sneak at breakneck speed (any CC).

 

Like johnchm said adding special ships as fighter-shield defeats purpose of Golans entirely. From my point of view I consider Golans (3s in particular) to be vital in defense chain. It should offer very significant bonus for defender and very serious obstacle for attacker. Mainly thinking about G3 as G1 is literally (pun intended) 'one shot wonder'. G2 is hmm...  like few shots wonder lol. As for G3 it represents pinnacle of defensive platform technology across GFFA. Right now with beefed up shield, hull (don't remember by how much, did extensive modding many, many months ago) and tiny armament boost it is capable of surviving up to 6 broadsides from Executor, which is not such bad result. But I still consider them very weak if large number of capitals is present. Even G3 fall like flies at -40C. Of course I'm fully aware that 1.3 will bring significant changes to how battles are fought, so it's just casual opinion&debate.. 

 

What I would do (given time):

 

1. Barrage area

2. Adding Missile Jamming and/or Point Defense ability (depend on level - autofire?)

3. Laser cannons to cover all arcs - G1 starting with duals, then quads for G2 and perhaps for G3 octuples or 2xquads?

 

Fighter idea is very good (&of course) easiest to implement, but it still doesn't deal with the problem of weak structure(s). It is unacceptable that expensive investment* is totally insignificant in a large scale assault. Yes in 1.2-default form G3 is useful against fleet of Bulk Freighters but it has serious problems with lvl 1 capital ship (there is no point talking about super capitals) and it doesn't have any chance against squadron of fairly advanced fighters (equipped with bombs/torpedoes or missiles). Perhaps upgrades for Golans... We have upgrades for everything (almost). Golans need some research-love too  (all aspects shields/hull/armament/ and most important better quality fighters).

 

In the end.. I still think it's better to beef up stations not number of fighters (less lag, and mess on the screen)

 

* - let it be even more expensive. I'm prepared to spend big if it (G3) will offer impregnable wall (for a good while anyway)

[megabalta]

I think you misunderstood, turbolaser shots would only explode after they reach their maximum distance (e.g. 4000m). This means a rather thin ringlike area around the ship/station. If the snubcraft passes this deathzone, its fairly safe, only lucky shots can hit it bullseye. Now because this danger ring is fairly away from the station, the turbolaser shots travel sime time to get there, which makes anti-snubcraft defense even harder. The barrage ability could time turbolaser shots to explode in a player given area, but as an ability it would be timed. However if the attacking bombers would be close when barrage is triggered, it could devastate them because of the short shot-traveltime. If ship/station includes rapid lasers too, there is another kill zone in a close circle to the vehicle, as we all know. So bomber players should keep their squadrons between the faraway ringlike killzone and the close quarters rapid laser/turbolaser barrage kill zone. If torpedoes/rockets/bombs would do significant damage, managing bombing runs could be even fun, almost like a micro managing minigame.

From the ship/station players pov, the trick would be to cover one turbolaser ship with another, positioning the two so, that one ship would be in the others kill zone ring to rid it from swarming bombers.

Turbolaser shots flak exploding ability is seen in the movies and the clone wars animated series, so I consider it canon.

Btw I'm also against so many fighter squadrons, it completely lags the game. But if fighters would be more effective in killing bombers (e.g. larger damage output against light armor), a smaller number of squadrons could be efficient enough.

Edited by megabalta, 16 July 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[johnchm.10]

tbh, the compliment alterations thing was mainly meant as a quick fix for 1.2, since apparently the new version has redone combat mechanics somewhat, and that since we've had 2 or 3 news announcements in the past month or 2, with at least one more in the near future, i get the feeling that we might see the new version by october, so 1, there wouldn't be much point completely overhauling the system now since an overhaul is already in the works, and 2, if we desired to import the changes to the new version, they'd be easy to implement. changing the compliments can literally consist of changing 1 character, as opposed to having to redo modifications to a model or the xml/tooltip combo

[a.fake.name]

I think energy beams exploding is a tad silly.
If anything, give the golan stations some light lasers for close range defense.
Golan I: ten light double laser turrets
Golan II: Twenty light double laser turrets, and point defense and sensor jammer on automatic
Golan III: Twenty light quad laser turrets, and point defense and sensor jammer with half the cooldown time of the Golan II

This gives them, for their size, decent close in defense while not being enough to instantly stop snubcraft.

[Aizen Teppa]

I think energy beams exploding is a tad silly.

Exactly my thoughts. (any)Laser is literally beam of light. It can be deflected, it can pierce through things, it can be absorbed (or consumed by black hole), but light does not explode in form of splash damage. 

 

Where splash damage is possible: plasma or anti-matter based weaponry.

[megabalta]

Actually I don't see SW lasers as lasers per se. Lasers look like nothing in space if they don't hit you right in the eyeball. Especially not like trace rounds. And how do you ionize a photonbeam? Plasma shots would be more accurate to describe mastaLukas fantasy. So yeah, exploding "laser"shots - perfectly plausible.

Edited by megabalta, 17 July 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Aizen Teppa]

Actually I don't see SW lasers as lasers per se. Lasers look like nothing in space if they don't hit you right in the eyeball. Especially not like trace rounds. And how do you ionize a photonbeam? Plasma shots would be more accurate to describe mastaLukas fantasy. So yeah, exploding "laser"shots - perfectly plausible.

He, he. That is where we 2 differ. I consider SW as great fun but not much more. Fully aware that overwhelming majority of this is totally improbable and/or impossible, but it does not stop me from enjoying things.

 

Weapons from SW resemble more pulsed beam emitter. 

[a.fake.name]

Exploding lasers seems silly when the craft has a compliment to rely upon.

[Aizen Teppa]

Exploding lasers seems silly when the craft has a compliment to rely upon.

Hear, hear!

[megabalta]

Friendly fire is normally off in this game. It could be turned on for a more interesting gameplay, but since units have the intelligence of a dement ratmonkey, they'll probably try hard to wander in the killzone. In that case your objection would be perfectly logical.

[skie9173]

I don't use Golans much but Here's my two cents:

Fake's idea about turrets sounds good, perhaps accomplished via traditional research, or an upgrade to stations on an individual basis.

Extended compliments sounds good but I would suggest adding a group of tugs, say in 4, 8, 12, progression. A big military instillation surely would have tugs or tug like vehicles to move supplies, surely they can be pressed into combat repair duties. They would give a small advantage to the defensive, the attacker would have to have more overwhelming numbers or push closer to the station to overcome the repair bonus.

An alternative would be to give Golans better passive damage control. They don't have major engines or hyperdrive so that's less complex systems to repair. Also that gives more room possible for a larger crew. Couple this with them being planetary stations, meaning they might need less room for supplies since some can be stored planetside. So they can have a larger crew, which means more people to repair.

One more idea, but not a great one just throwing it out there. Maybe an upgrade or something deploys a set of defensive turrets like: http://starwars.wiki...Gun_Emplacement

In a picket line around the main station

[Aizen Teppa]

But on the other hand it could be a good way to reduce fighter lag. 

 

Imagine: swarm of fighters A closing on last squadron of enemy fighters B. Everybody want a killing shot on easy prey, and they all kill themselves (except the lucky guy at the end of the "shooting queue").

 

Out of curiosity is is possible to set selective friendly fire? Fighters - yes; capitals - no?

[megabalta]

To be honest, I have no idea. I've never actually studied friendly fire in EAW. There's friendly fire for bombing runs and orbital bombardments (which is great imo) in FX mod, thats all I know.

[johnchm.10]

I hadn't thought about the tugs. I would put in 1 squadron of tugs per wing of fighters. Again, my chief concern is with lag, and because early model tugs are slow as hell. It did occur to me that in the x-wing and tie fighter games, you could call upon craft to rearm your fighter mid mission. I think it was the delta-class and 1 or 2 other ships that could do this. What I'm thinking is give transports a passive ability that allows fighters in a small radius to fire missiles at a faster rate, and including some of them in the stations' compliments.
Which brings me to an idea that I scrapped but now can bring back. The idea is to add ships other than fighters to the stations' compliments. I was thinking sentinels for the empire, and yt2000s for the alliance. Their role would be as customs craft. These craft could be deployed to detain smugglers or pirates and their cargos or act as backup in case the fighters needed some more punch. The transports could take the lead, let off a volley of missiles, knock out a few fighters, take on additional fighters from a stand off distance with their heavier guns, and support friendly fighters. And if you give them the missile recharge passive ability, its harder to overcome the defenders.
The reasons I picked these two are 1, they are armed with at least 1 ion cannon, 2, they are armed with concussion missiles, and 3, they aren't ridiculously slow.
I scrapped this idea because it kept escalating in my head, and at one point, I thought about adding a small capital ship to the station's compliments.

Edited by johnchm.10, 18 July 2014 - 11:51 PM.

[skie9173]

Question: how moddabble is the Monile Defense Unit of FoC, and can its deply into a pad-like object be used in space?

[Aizen Teppa]

I 
I scrapped this idea because it kept escalating in my head, and at one point, I thought about adding a small capital ship to the station's compliments.

 

I know the feeling. My way of dealing with permanent escalation of 'what can be improved' is doing only what I had first in mind. I discovered it keeps me focus on the idea without being sidetracked by more, more, more things to add. At some point expanding to much turns into vicious circle without exit because there is always something to improve over already done improvements.

[megabalta]

Why would you use MDU in space? There's the orbital satellite to build upon. If you want to make a starship that can build stuff on it like an MDU, well I just tried that a couple of days ago without success. Of course you're free to try.

[skie9173]

Yeah I didn't want the unit exactly, just a unit with the deployment/build pads.

Shame that I doesn't work. What I was thinking was what if Golans could spawn a set of units (modified tugs maybe) that could deploy into something similar to the orbital satellites. Just to give the player slightly more control over defense placement

Edited by skie9173, 19 July 2014 - 10:51 AM.