13 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

Seems the momentum is currently on the side of the Aye's. Figured I'd start a thread about this, as its sort of interesting politically in these times of political drama around the world. Does this validify east-Ukrainian Russians fight for independence, Crimea? etc.

 

Also, I know very few Englishmen/Scots so I'd like to get some thoughts from them on this: What's your opinions on this? To me this looks like a great chance to get some upheaval in the british democracy, which seems sort of stagnant.

 

[Pasidon]

Imperialism is dead.  They should have been independent years ago.

[duke_Qa]

Well, its not as much about imperialism as it is about being heard, it would seem. I'm suspecting that if Scotland goes for something more socialistic akin to the Scandinavian model, things might rapidly improve.

 

Also, it would be a mean kick in the nuts to the elites down in London, which might help on some political reform and bailing out of the system as it currently stands.

 

As this article says:

If Scotland votes for independence next week, it is the British establishment – and the establishment alone – that is to blame. The yes surge is not being driven by blood-and-soil nationalism, by dewy-eyed Celtic nostalgia or the resurrection of a Braveheart spirit. It is a defiant protest at a bankrupt order built by Margaret Thatcher and then preserved and entrenched by New Labour. David Cameron’s Conservatives will bear most responsibility for the break-up of the country, but the last government and a hollowed-out Scottish Labour party cannot escape the blame.

 

 

Edited by duke_Qa, 08 September 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[Mathijs]

That's what interests me about it; to see if Scotland is able to adapt this radical turn of events into something that improves their situation. I don't think I've witnessed something like this before.

[OmegaBolt]

I hope they do alright after getting independence and don't lose any of their privileges from being a part of the UK. I also hope it doesn't cause any resentment across the border, although I think the north of England has more in common with Scotland than it does with Westminster. I also hope it doesn't restrict movement between countries either as many people travel and live in both places.

 

If they can get true independence politically and economically with a new and more representative government then they should vote yes, absolutely, and maybe I'll apply for a visa. Even if only to mix things up around here, perhaps it might spell the change of our own government which I think is surely to happen this election if any. Hopefully UKIP won't win though, that'd be bad.

 

Of course it was never to do with imperialism either, Scotland was never a colony. It was Scottish imperialism that caused them to fold become part of union in the first place.

Edited by OmegaBolt, 08 September 2014 - 05:52 PM.

[duke_Qa]

I'm guessing they'll get the same sort of laws for border crossing we got between the Scandinavian countries, which means no use for passport and some minor rules for what you can bring along over the borders.

 

What I'm hoping for is that this will cause a bit of a upper for Scotland which again will make the southern parts of the isle go. "Hmm, maybe we should have looked into political reform after all."

[Gen.Kenobi]

Will the UK flag change if they get independence?

[Pasidon]

If you believe it will, then you don't know how stubborn English pride is.  Keep in mind, Gen... these are people who are so old fashioned, they call flashlights, torches.  Which is glorious patriotism to the empire, yes, quite.

[Mathijs]

'torches' sounds so much cooler, though.

 

"I'll bash your skull with my torch!".

[OmegaBolt]

I don't know if they'll change the flag, not sure if there would be any legal need to do it or not. It's probably too iconic to be changed though if it were this is probably my favourite so far:

 

Spoiler

 

At least Wales is also represented.  

[duke_Qa]

Doubt the UK would announce their fragmentation by changing their flag.

 

It seems things are moving along for the yes side. I'm surprised the no-side didn't realize that this sort of slow trickle would eventually build enough momentum to actually become a legitimate threat. I'm suspecting they were to hidebound to even imagine it happening, thinking their way was the only way.

 

http://www.huffingto..._n_5789492.html

An article about some of the worries people are having about it, which I guess is important too.

[OmegaBolt]

Losing Scotland would likely weaken Britain as a power, dent its self-confidence and make it more introverted, increasing doubts about its future in Europe.

I really doubt it. Clearly the establishment don't give a damn about their image... they must already have a massively ballooned ego to conduct things the way they are. If anything it'll boost their confidence and stupid "we'll show them!" attitude. I wish they'd just stop talking bullcrap like "We need to show we're still a force in the world"... seriously, no we don't. You've got more people out of work, or working for free thanks to abusive government schemes, more people in the soup kitchens, public spending cuts, privatisation and yet waging more foreign wars and wasting £100 billion on "better" nuclear armaments. The government deficit has doubled since this last government put in their "austerity" measures and they've only massively further entrenched corporate power.

I hope this causes a landslide politically, maybe they'll now listen. Maybe we'll finally get rid of the monarchy altogether. I hope this means people will vote for sensible genuine parties as the current two on rotation have truly messed up time and time again, only revealing their lack of interest in actually leading the country in a better direction. They've all spouted the same rhetoric, never kept to promises (the current Conservatives have literally u-turned on everything), and simply kept the country on a treadmill... which is leading (hopefully) to its non-violent breakup.

Losing the nuclear weapons would be the absolute best thing but I doubt that'll happen.

But of course practically I hope the nationalist crap is kept a minimum. I really pray UKIP does not gain any power... their weak anti-immigration anti-EU talk gets the desperate on their side but they're literally made up of ex-Conservatives and funded by ex-Conservative backers too. They'd change nothing that would actually help the average citizen. With any look Green will actually do well as they have good policies all-round, anti-corruption, much needed increase in minimum wage, pro-nationalising certain previously nationalised services that have since gone to hell.

Hopefully as a small country Scotland manage to work intelligently and build one of those socialist utopias like in Europe.

[Ash]

And nobody's at all shocked they didn't go.

 

Maybe now the politicians will shut the fuck up about stupid things like this and get on with some proper work. Oh, wait. They're politicians. They wouldn't know proper work if it showed up at the polling booth and voted for the worthless fucks.

 

They were always going to vote no. The idea of them actually gaining independence is a ridiculous notion only entertained by the SNP and the dramatists. Just like the idea of Welsh independence is trumpeted by Plaid Cymru and a few assorted people who just can't get the chip off their shoulder that once upon a time England and Wales didn't really like one another very much.

 

If they had gone, I'd have laughed at Scotland basically just failing. 'Cause that's what'd have happened. No trading partners, renegotiating everything, having to apply to join the UN, NATO, the EU (although I am anti-EU, I appreciate its benefits in terms of trade), the Commonwealth...basically EVERY MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT EVER. And they'd have no army, no economy, no currency, no population with which to form voting power in greater multinational cooperatives, and also nobody to trade with. Because if I were the British government I'd make a particular point of a) failing to recognise the new nation and b) setting frankly ridiculous trade tariffs. Just to make life difficult for them.

 

But they made the sensible choice. Maybe soon someone will answer the West Lothian Question although frankly, given how little airtime has been devoted to the matter since the vote came in I imagine status quo has resumed.

[duke_Qa]

Hmm, should have replied to this one back then.

 

Yeah, I guess the odds weren't in their favor. I'm sure the consequences would have worked themselves out in a decade or so though, and it would have given a necessary stirr to the British political system. Just look at the parties over there today, Cameron going old-school austerity and being overall tory, the liberals just hanging on by the noose of the tories, damned by their choice of ally. And worst of all, Labor being Tory light, "caviar-socialists" as they say in France. All good intentions but not interested in doing anything but helping themselves. No wonder this UKIP party is having such a ball sucking up votes. The altruistic parties have stagnated in conservative ideas, and the conservatives don't really have anything to bring to the table of modern society.

 

Oh well, that was a bit more generic UK than just the vote. But to me it seems that this background was one of the primary motivators for the scots to try and become independent: Get something more leftist up and running instead of being stuck to this self-perpetuating machine of status quo.