151 replies to this topic

[Zeta1127]

I have recent come to the determination that TCW (The Clone Wars animated series) is EVIL!

Don't understand where this determination comes from? I will explain.

In the ISD-I refit topic in the Community Discussion a while back, PR mentioned that the Tantive IV is a Vanguard c20 refitted CR70 (an idea I have always enjoyed), but now that isn't true, TCW has established that the Tantive IV was basically not in RotS because it was already a CR90 and the CR70 in RotS was actually the EaW Sundered Heart!

What is this nonsense! This only came to my attention when I ran into the change on Wookieepedia and tried to stop it not knowing the full story until later! It is but one more nail in TCW's coffin in my eyes, what do you think?

P.S. If this topic is in a bad place then by all means move it.

Edited by Zeta1127, 16 November 2010 - 08:50 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

If the RotS script says Tantive IV, then that trumps everything.

[Darth Paxis]

The reason for this change is to resolve a number of issues regarding the different appearances in the Tantive IV from Episode III to Episode IV. The most important aspect is the dimensions of the vessel. A comparison between the vessel blueprints in each movie shows that one is shorter and wider than the others, requiring the vessel to be "stretched" and thinned down during its upgrade.

Still another important part of this was that in Episode III, Bail Organa was using the vessel to commit an act of treason by picking up Jedi "rebels". It wouldn't do for him to go zipping around the galaxy committing crimes in a vessel that has very well-known ties to him.

I will say I support you 100% in this. I hated this retcon because it completely and utterly goes against all other previous sources but it is official whether we like it or not I'm afraid.

[Phoenix Rising]

Why would the Sundered Heart mount dummy turrets?

[Darth Paxis]

Why would the Sundered Heart mount dummy turrets?

Ask the genius who made the decision. My best guess is that it was still technically a consular vessel at the time of RotS and was upgraded with actual weaponry (along with its engine upgrades) when it started being used as a Rebel vessel.

[Tropical Bob]

During the battle over Tatooine, and since he was in an official task, Raymus piloted the Tantive IV, rather than the Heart. Raymus Antilles was killed and Tantive IV captured. The fate of the Sundered Heart after the death of Captain Antilles is unknown.

Straight from Wookie.

Retcons are crazy.

[Casen]

What is TCW? I am not familiar with that acronym.

[Darth Paxis]

During the battle over Tatooine, and since he was in an official task, Raymus piloted the Tantive IV, rather than the Heart. Raymus Antilles was killed and Tantive IV captured. The fate of the Sundered Heart after the death of Captain Antilles is unknown.

Straight from Wookie.

Retcons are crazy.

What I think it means is the Sundered Heart is a known Rebel ship for use in Rebel operations and strikes such as Fresia and Kuat, whereas the Tantive IV is for more covert operations like using its diplomatic immunity to sneak past blockades or "safely" transfer stolen plans.

What is TCW? I am not familiar with that acronym.

TCW is The Clone Wars, the new animated series. Pretty good for the most part although some episodes were rubbish. I like it more than I hate it, the only problem is the creators of the show more or less ignored EVERY single pre-established fact in the Expanded Universe in making it. Apparently its been a nightmare to resolve most of the issues for the guys in charge at Lucas.

[Zeta1127]

By the initial lack of reaction, I thought I had made a big mistake, I thank you all for the comments. I agree completely PR, it will never be the Sundered Heart to me for that fact, they are letting T-canon trump G-canon, unacceptable. Corla Metonae's story, a rather cool one, is a complete mess due to it too, because she oversaw the Tantive IV's Vanguard c20 refit. Leeland Chee is the guy who made the decision because he is the supposed ''authority'' on canon.

Kacen, I should have said it is The Clone Wars animated series, how stupid of me, I just fixed it.

What amazes me is they can retcon the Tantive IV which scarcely needed such a dramatic retcon, but they can't fix the Allegiance and Imperial-class SSD situation from Dark Empire (should probably be Star Battlecruisers given their keel length with the Allegiance being the only named representative, which is only vaguely implied on Wookieepedia), the New Class Modernization Program situation (really got fudged thanks to Cracken's Threat Dossier and NJO), the vague Rejuvenator and Turbulent-class Star Destroyers from NJO (The New Jedi Order series) and beyond, and the Strident-class Star Defender situation (its sister class, the Viscount-class Star Defender is so well represented, being a Star Dreadnought analogue, but because of a poor author the Strident got stuck with being as long as an Imperial-class Star Destroyer, I don't think so!). They can retcon appearances but can scarcely deal with the technical nightmares poor authors have caused!

Edited by Zeta1127, 22 November 2010 - 06:35 AM.

[Tropical Bob]

Viscount-class Star Defender is so well represented, being a Star Dreadnought analogue, but because of a poor author it got stuck with being as long as an Imperial-class Star Destroyer, I don't think so!

As far as I know, it's still considered at 17km, just shorter than the 17.6km or 19km rating of the Executor-class.

The worst author mess-up situation comes around when you talk about the Executor-class and its sister ships! Are they all 19km, or are some the Super-class at 8km? Is there really a Super-class, or was it merely a Senatorial budget cover-up? And then we have to figure out which ones were Super-class if it does exist! (Though, some are probably easier than others to figure out.)

[Zeta1127]

I poorly wrote it the first time, the length complaint was about the Strident not the Viscount, I fixed the comment, and your absolutely right, the Executor-class length mess was probably the biggest mistake. I would say the Super-class name was bureaucratic camouflage to hide it from the Senate (that is what Wookieepedia says, they do have their moments). Though in an older discussion on Star Dreadnoughts, I saw something about an 8km Superior-class that combined with the 8km Executor-class debate makes things a nightmare to figure out if one isn't paying close attention.

I could go on and on about ambiguous ships that have never been properly depicted, there is the two Mandator-class Star Dreadnought variants (someone had the brilliant idea to write the class name with the Star Dreadnaught spelling on Wookieepedia), Mandator I and Mandator II, from the Prequel era (something TCW could really help with instead of stepping on existing canon constantly), the Interdictor Star Destroyer (still no class name and they keep confusing whether many interdictors in the Dark Horse comics are Immobilizer 418 cruisers or not), and the use of the term Super Star Destroyer in the official class name for the Eclipse and the Sovereign-classes which is also a big problem with the Allegiance and the Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer I previously mentioned.

Edited by Zeta1127, 21 April 2012 - 06:52 AM.

[Phoenix Rising]

I'm not sure they've even settled the height of the AT-AT at 22.5 meters yet. I've done the comparisons from ESB and 15.5 m is simply too small. Also, the "Fact File" gives the SPHA-T a length of 140.2 m, which would make the AT-TEs in AotC about 50 m, and and Scimitar Assault Bomber a length of 8 m, which would only fit an Ewok pilot.

[Zeta1127]

Yeah, I have just been focusing on starships, because many authors have a habit of just creating a new class without giving any technical data on them what so ever, but you are right ground vehicles aren't perfect either. Another interesting fudge job is the Heavy Assault Vehicle Transport B5 Juggernaut (HAVT B5) from FoC that breaks the existing Juggernaut naming convention when it should probably be named Heavy Assault Vehicle/transport B5 Juggernaut (HAVt B5) like the existing HAVw A5 and A6.

I agree, 140.2 m is probably overdoing it for the SPHA series, and the Scimitar Assault Bomber length is just downright laughable especially for a bomber.

To continue the Tantive IV vs Sundered Heart discussion, one must remember that the two trilogies were made 25 something odd years apart, blueprints are bound to have discrepancies because human beings are fallible! George Lucas said it was the Tantive IV, and that is good enough for me.

Edited by Zeta1127, 16 November 2010 - 10:41 PM.

[Darth Paxis]

In regards to all of those issues Jason Fry is currently working on a new Essential Guide, the Essential Guide to Warfare, which should hopefully clarify a number of those issues. It'll probably be as big a help to this mod as the Essential Atlas but it won't come out until late next year.

[Tropical Bob]

I'm not sure they've even settled the height of the AT-AT at 22.5 meters yet. I've done the comparisons from ESB and 15.5 m is simply too small. Also, the "Fact File" gives the SPHA-T a length of 140.2 m, which would make the AT-TEs in AotC about 50 m, and and Scimitar Assault Bomber a length of 8 m, which would only fit an Ewok pilot.

It's laughable that the AT-TE would be considered even close to as tall as the AT-AT.

the Executor-class length mess was probably the biggest mistake. I would say the Super-class name was bureaucratic camouflage to hide it from the Senate (that is what Wookieepedia says, they do have their moments). Though in an older discussion on Star Dreadnoughts, I saw something about an 8km Superior-class that combined with the 8km Executor-class debate makes things a nightmare to figure out if your not paying attention.

I think it was Death Star that just recently introduced the Super-class retcon. I believe that the actual existence of such a ship class would heartily fix a few issues, as we had discussed previously in other topics, such as Zsinj managing to afford and staff an Executor-class, the quoted Super-class vessels that were part of Black Sword Command (I think there was a mention of three), and possibly the Knight Hammer.

Edited by Tropical Bob, 17 November 2010 - 08:35 AM.

[Darth Paxis]

the Executor-class length mess was probably the biggest mistake. I would say the Super-class name was bureaucratic camouflage to hide it from the Senate (that is what Wookieepedia says, they do have their moments). Though in an older discussion on Star Dreadnoughts, I saw something about an 8km Superior-class that combined with the 8km Executor-class debate makes things a nightmare to figure out if your not paying attention.

I think it was Death Star that just recently introduced the Super-class retcon. I believe that the actual existence of such a ship class would heartily fix a few issues, as we had discussed previously in other topics, such as Zsinj managing to afford and staff an Executor-class, the quoted Super-class vessels that were part of Black Sword Command (I think there was a mention of three), and possibly the Knight Hammer.

Actually I think the Super-class retcon was around before Death Star, although I'm not 100% and it was a false designation and scale to slip the plans past the Senate Military Oversight Committee. I agree though that they should introduce some actual Super-class ships or tie the incorrect numbers in with some of the countless unidentified ships out there (like those surrounding Byss in DE). As for the three ships in Black Sword Command there was the Intimidator (renamed Pride of Yevetha), which is a confirmed Executor-class although it was referred to as Super-class, the Aramadia (a SSD with an image that doesn't match up with any identified SSD class) and a third, as of yet unidentified vessel.

[Tropical Bob]

Actually I think the Super-class retcon was around before Death Star, although I'm not 100% and it was a false designation and scale to slip the plans past the Senate Military Oversight Committee. I agree though that they should introduce some actual Super-class ships or tie the incorrect numbers in with some of the countless unidentified ships out there (like those surrounding Byss in DE). As for the three ships in Black Sword Command there was the Intimidator (renamed Pride of Yevetha), which is a confirmed Executor-class although it was referred to as Super-class, the Aramadia (a SSD with an image that doesn't match up with any identified SSD class) and a third, as of yet unidentified vessel.

I didn't hear of it until Death Star, but there are a lot of materials I don't delve into. Which also may explain why I'm also unsure of the Intimidator being confirmed Executor-class. You definitely seem a lore-buff, though, so I'll take your word for it.

The blurry picture of the Aramadia on Wookie looks vaguely like an Allegiance-class

[Zeta1127]

As I previous mentioned, the Allegiance is almost certainly the only named representative of the Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer, because if you look at them, they both look like over-sized Imperial-class Star Destroyers. They are almost certainly Star Cruisers given the current estimation of their size.

The Aramadia SSD is probably a typo, because the Intimidator later renamed the Pride of Yevetha was Nil Spaar's SSD flagship and the Aramadia was the name of Nil Spaar's thrustship flagship, which is a point of view PR shares. I mean, why name two ships Aramadia? I specifically remember the Intimidator being referred to as an Executor-class when the NRI was scouting the Koornacht Cluster in Shield of Lies.

Edited by Zeta1127, 18 November 2010 - 05:02 PM.

[Tropical Bob]

As I previous mentioned, the Allegiance is almost certainly the only named representative of the Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer, because if you look at them, they both look like over-sized Imperial-class Star Destroyers. They are almost certainly Star Cruisers given the current estimation of their size.

The Aramadia SSD is probably a typo, because the Intimidator later renamed the Pride of Yevetha was Nil Spaar's SSD flagship and the Aramadia was the name of Nil Spaar's thrustship flagship, which is a point of view PR shares. I specifically remember the Intimidator being referred to as an Executor-class when the NRI was scouting the Koornacht Cluster in Shield of Lies.

I would think that there wouldn't really be a single custom ship of that size as part of the Empire (Maybe for a warlord). It was probably part of an actual line of ships, so there'd be more than one. And since it's classified as a "Super Star Destroyer", it could be lumped into the Super-class category if they just used that as a blanket term.

Could be a typo, or it could also be a gesture of respect or something.

[Darth Paxis]

As I previous mentioned, the Allegiance is almost certainly the only named representative of the Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer, because if you look at them, they both look like over-sized Imperial-class Star Destroyers. They are almost certainly Star Cruisers given the current estimation of their size.

The Aramadia SSD is probably a typo, because the Intimidator later renamed the Pride of Yevetha was Nil Spaar's SSD flagship and the Aramadia was the name of Nil Spaar's thrustship flagship, which is a point of view PR shares. I specifically remember the Intimidator being referred to as an Executor-class when the NRI was scouting the Koornacht Cluster in Shield of Lies.

Yeah there's been a lot of debate about those classes of ship. It's something they're working out in the Essential Guide to Warfare. I've been arguing non-stop for them to tie the Allegiance and the Imperial-class Super Star Destroyer together (with that being a colloquial nickname) and possibly even tying that in to Harssk's Shockwave.

As for the SSD Aramadia it is definately named Aramadia, there was a full story on it and it's fate after BFC. We can presume from the fact that Nil Spaar's thrustship also being called Aramadia that the word is a Yevethan word, which fits in with their habit of renaming all the ships so its original, Imperial name is unknown. Hey, there's like a million ships called Vengeance, right?