13 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

Besides all the more or less weird stuff that's going on in BotFA off and on (like most movies), I find this scene particularly weird. What's actually going on here? Dwarves from Iron Hills arrive with what looks like 8 major battalions to face foff against whoever claims the right to Erebor's riches... but when the blood thirsty orc hordes arrive to attack, the dwarves split up, and what looks like half of the army moves to face the giant host of Gundabad while the others just remain and linger i the background while their brothers in arms face a full frontal attack from thousands of heavy armored orcs? Why? Is there any logic behind this scene, motivated by the books?

EDIT: Conted wrong. Looked more closely now. It's half that split up, not 33%.

 

Edited by Nazgûl, 24 May 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Bofur]

The others are just noticeable in the foreground in the shot where Dain is saying "Where's Thorin, we need him" I'd guess they either split up tactically, or in case the elves attacked them from behind.

[Nazgûl]

But, it seems illogical that elves would attack dwarves from behind when dwarves are being attacked by legions of orcs. They don't hate each other THAT much And they elves did run through the dwarven hordes, to jump over the shield wall and help, but the other dwarves didn't react.

[Lauri]

Tactics, mate. The front was wide, and deep. It wouldn't have helped much to crowd the battle, and reinforcements are good to keep around. They didn't need more then and there. Sending everyone in creates more chaos, and having 3 or 9 dwarves behind you in a line won't make a difference, since you can't fight particularly more in width anyways.

 

If anything, LotR should've had more focus on this. That being said, the Haradrim and Corsairs was kept as reinforcements, while Rohan sent everyone in a massive strike head on in the battle of Minas Tirith.

 

The question you should be asking, is why the hell didn't the elves use their bows?

[Bofur]

The Extended Edition should clear up a lot of this, or at least I hope so. The battle was really quite disjointed and it was unclear what was happening the first few times I watched it.

[MattTheLegoman]

WETA's The Art of War should clear up the battle scenes too. =D

[Lauri]

The battle was really quite disjointed and it was unclear what was happening the first few times I watched it.

Oh, you mean like how Thorin is going to kill Azog, mounts a ram, then Dwalin shouts "Lead on!" from another ram, with Kili and Fili on separate rams. As far as I could tell, only 4 rams were present in the normal edition, and all of these survived while their riders died or fell off? It might have been planned, but it just seems silly. EE has quite a few things to correct, in my view.

[njm1983]

The rams might have been pulled from chariots. I seem to recall them in the trailer.

 

 

Splitting the forces was most likely tactical. The valley was probably narrow and the lines of the dwarves was sufficient to withstand the attack and fill the terrain from rim to rim. The Battalions remaining behind would most likely advance when part of the line began to break.

 

It is possible they didnt trust the elves and the remaining force stayed to keep them in check.

 

Lack of using their bows was probably because Thranduil waited too long to decide whether to attack or not, The orc and dwarf lines were too close by that point. There could be any number of off screen scenarios where they were used. We just didnt get to see it.

[Nazgûl]

Yeah I get that, and you're refering to "300" kind of, but it doesn't look that narrow and with the onslaught of what appears to be thousands of heavily armed orcs (and trolls), the rather thin line of dwarves would logically not withstand that long, and the others was quite far back.... Oh well, I just think it looks odd. I also think the elves should have waited until the orcs rammed the shield wall instead of rendering the wall less effective and risc being impaled themselves. And indeed, they should have fired their bows, before the dwarves even got there, but that would have given away the visual surprise of them leaping over off course...

[Mathijs]

'What is going on here'  is what I was thinking throughout this terrible film.

[Nazgûl]

Lol 

[NewErr]

Well if you need to look in 100 places to understand a battle... yeah .. is a poor movie.

[njm1983]

LOL good points. Some of the retarded way the elves and dwarves acted in the battle could just be due to lack of coordination. It probably would have been more dramatic to let the audience hang there a little longer and actually have the dwarven lines get hit by the orcs. maybe even let them fight a bit before thranduil sends them in in a surprising way.

 

 

Looking at this scene the valley isnt that wide.

 

However in this scene.... the army left behind seems to be the bulk of the dwarf force

[Lauri]

The bulk is held back, even though it's only slightly larger. The dwarves are fierce warriors, why would they play everything on one card? You want other cards to put in when, and where, you need them. If you have everyone in a line, and the line breaks, the enemy can penetrate and flank your forces. If you have a smaller line, but it's near to break, you can send in reinforcements where needed. Besides, they didn't even know the orcs were coming, why not keep some back in case others are coming from the flank?

 

Has anyone played any of the Total War games? Do you just send everyone in at the same time? If you look away from the fact that you usually set up archers to target the advancing forces beforehand (which Thranduils elves didn't for some reason), do you really send everyone in afterwards? I always keep some at bay (though, not the bulk, I'll admit).