16 replies to this topic

[Titan Cronus]

Hey guys.

 

I'm not sure this is the right forum to make this post so forgive me if I'm in the wrong place.

 

 

Righty, "Wards"!? I have been reading, playing and watching LotR and Middle Earth books, games and movies for most of my life now and have come across the word "Ward" quite a few times and never quite knew what it meant. The context it's mentioned, it is nearly always as some kind of weapon, rune, enchantment or spell but its never specific as to which. For example, Bifur fought with Wards but its never explained what they were or how he used them. Also, on several times throughout Tolkien's work, he says that people's armour and weapons were warded with runes. Unfortunately I can't remember any exact examples of this off hand but the best I can think of is in the Song of Earendil it says "his shining shield was scored with runes to ward all wounds and harm from him". I know that's not the right context for what I mean but it's the best I can remember off hand. Then there was the wicked Dwarf, Mim. He cursed the treasure of Glaurung with "Wards of Protection" so that no one but himself and Glaurung could touch it.

Now its been ages since I read any on the books but I'm almost certain that Wards were mentioned on other occasions. I'm sure there were mentions of Wards of Healing or other kinds of wards and mentions of when, where and how Wards were used in other scenarios.

 

 

Can anyone remember where else they were mentioned or what they were exactly? Or does anyone know anything else about them.

 

 

Thanks a millions guys.

 

Cro.

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

Well, the only one I can think of is Sting, but I'm not sure if the runes on that are 'magical' or purely decorative. 

[Titan Cronus]

Thanks for the reply Irene.

 

It seems that it was Bilbo who had it engraved by the Elves after the Quest for Erebor. The runes were only for show and read (written in Sindarin) "Meagnas is my name, I am the Spider's bane." but the fact that it glowed when near goblins was because it was made by the Elves of Gondolin and they imbued their weapons with magic when making them (an interesting point is that Sting was the only weapon of its kind to glow blue, all the rest glowed white apparently).

 

The reason I'm asking about wards is because I'm making a mod for Rise of the Witch-King and try where ever possible to stick to lore. I want to make the Dwarf Bifur and would like to give him some wards but as I don't know much about them, I'm kind of stuck. Of course I want to know just out of curiosity too. Now that I have come across Wards, I am determined to find out more.

 

I know this is not the gaming forum but as its the lore I'm after, this seems like the right place to begin asking. So far, the only ward I have given Bifur is the "Ward of Protection" as that the only one I can remember by name. I don't know anything about it though (from the lore perspective) other than the fact that it stopped people from touching things it warded. Now, I've interpreted that as meaning that they were unable to get to it. I have represented this in the game by making the ward a circle of runes drawn on the ground that no enemy can enter. This doesn't seem to fit the idea of some "fighting" with wards though so I'm trying to find out anything else about them that I can.

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

Well... I've never heard of Wards before, I'll give em a look. I'm intrigued.

[Titan Cronus]

See, it's intriguing.   Once you pop, you can't stop! lol

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

Well, it seems that, in its basest form, there are two subdivisions of 'magic' as cast by Elves and Maiar, the first being Magia, which is an active spell (ie. cast fireball, heal, manipulate environments), and Goeteia, which appears to be more passive (ie. terrifying auras, illusions and weather changes). However, it may be useful to point out that neither of these were perceived as being 'magic', so much as a part of life for those who possessed magical capabilities.

 

Dwarven magic, on the other hand, (confined by what we know) only works in mechanics such as Durin's Door, however it may be that these magical properties were gifted to them by the Elves, since mentions of their magic are so sparse.

 

As for the name 'Wards', I'm not found anything as yet. I'll get back to you later.

[Námo]

"Wards" simply means "Guardians" or "Protectors."

 

In plural Tolkien only used it once, in relation to the Sindar (greyelves) of Beleriand, who among other names were called "Wards of Melian."

 

In singular, you'll find "Warden of the City" and "Warden of the Keys," both titles used only i Gondolin, and Gondor had its "Warden of the House of Healing."

 

Otherwise, Tolkien himself did not use the term in any other connection.

 

 

 

BTW: concerning runes, there's a norwegian band called Wardruna, here performing "The Way to Hell"

 

Edited by Námo, 07 August 2015 - 03:03 PM.

[Titan Cronus]

Read my first post again man, Tolkien most definitely did use them in other contexts.

 

 

 

ADDED: Mim used a "Ward of Protection". Its been so long since I read it that I can't remember in which book he said it but Tolkien used those words, "Ward of Protection" Someone with a better knowledge of his works would know where. Sorry I can't be more specific about where.

Edited by Titan Cronus, 10 August 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[Námo]

My answer was just based on a quick search of "The History of Middle-earth Index" (which is very extensive, very accurate, and very reliable) as well as searches of the indexes of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. No big deal, but also no other hits than those mentioned.

 

Mim never used some "Ward of Protection" (a somewhat dubious terminology, by the way) in Tolkiens works. Not even in Narn I Chîn Húrin, which was written by Christopher Tolkien, based on his fathers works.

 

 

Someone with a better knowledge of his works would know ...

 

Oh yeah, sure. You might just be the man for that job. If you find any, please post it here, and I'll give you a "FreeBeerUpgrade" at the Blue Parrot. Go ahead, make my day ... ;-)

Edited by Námo, 11 August 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[Mathijs]

 Someone with a better knowledge of his works would know where. 

Ohoho, that's cute.

[Bashkuga]

 Someone with a better knowledge of his works would know where. 

You have no idea who you're talking to man

[Titan Cronus]

Was I talking to himself, J. R. R. Tolkien reincarnated?

 

I have read quite a lot of the ME works and most of the ones I have read, I have read several time (I will cycle through them every few years) and there are some things that catch my attention every time I read them. Wards are one of those things. He mentions them in the context that you state but also on other contexts. On the occasions that I come across the word being used in a context other than the usual, I think, "ah, I remember reading this last time and meant to find out what he meant" (obviously it can't appears that often or other people would have spotted it).

It is possible that because when I started reading the other stuff (stuff other than the Hobbit and LotR), I was mainly looking for things that would help me make a mod so when I saw ward being used in a context that other than the usual, it jumped out at me because of it's potential use for me in my mod and had I not been looking for stuff in the same way, I may have missed it. Or less likely but still possible, because I was so intent of finding some thing useful that inadvertently read it out of context. But like I said, this is unlikely as I would have had to have read it wrong several times and in several different places.

Anyhoo, my question is kinda answered; next to nothing is known about wards or warding (that's is if they even exist at all as the right honourable Námo suggest).  

 

 

When I said "Someone with a better knowledge of his works would know where.", I meant someone with a better knowledge than myself (If I was going to have a go at Námo, it would be a lot more blatant, just like last time )

Edited by Titan Cronus, 11 August 2015 - 06:36 PM.

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

Okay, the only references the History of Middle-earth books have to 'magical' or other uses of 'ward' (not relating to 'ward off', etc) are these:

 

"0 Urin, little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mim the fatherless, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not Glorund lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of Melko is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mim the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself."

 

"Their marching road is beaten broad through the black shadows by wizardry warded from wandering Elves"

 

"There watchful waited the Wards of Narog, lest the need of the Gnomes from the North should come, for the sea in the South them safe guarded, and eager Narog the East defended."

 

"Grey-gleaming steel, with gold adorned wrights had wrought it, with runes graven of might and victory, that a magic sat there and its wearer warded from wound or death, whoso bore to battle brightly shining dire dragon-headed its dreadful crest."

 

"'Tis Telchar's work of worth untold, its wearer warded from wound or magic, from glaive guarded or gleaming axe."

 

"In Gollum's reckoning it was some 20 [changed from some other figure] leagues from the Morannon to the outer wards of Minas Morghul, maybe more."

[Námo]

Most are verbs, but two of them nouns: "Wards of Narog" and "Wards of Minas Morghul" ... excellent find.

[Irenë Hawnetyne]

I'm fairly sure the 'Morghul' wards are those statues, the Watchers.

[Námo]

Don't be too sure, Irenë. It may all boil down to a capital W or just an ordinary w.

 

In some of the earlier drafts for LotR, Tolkien used the term "warder" in relation to some of the orc-guards (of the prisondoors and the gate) of Minas Morgul, see HoMe vol. VII, p. 337-8.

 

Please note, that the term ward as noun (Warden, warder, wards) does not in itself denote any kind of magical properties, and that such properties solely depends on the person(s) in question.

[Titan Cronus]

Could it be possible that a ward, in some cases, could be the result of rune inscriptions? Like, I just re-read the line in Irene's post about the "Grey-gleaming steel". Where it says "with runes graven of might and victory, that a magic sat there and its wearer warded from wound and death". Not the best example as its used as a verb. Or, in the song of Earendil where it says "his shining shield was scored with runes to ward all wounds and harm from him" (again, not a great example again).

 

 

ADDED: Like a "warden" is a ward so maybe something warded by runes and/or magic has a ward on it. Or, someone protecting, enhancing or altering something with runes or magic could be placing a ward on it?

Edited by Titan Cronus, 12 August 2015 - 11:31 AM.