54 replies to this topic

[duke_Qa]

For all things BREXIT. I personally feel it's a bad idea. A fellow party member that I've hosted in my town a few years back thinks the same and has written a letter to the Brits about it.

 

http://www.southampt...-elvestuen.page

[Pasidon]

Transgender people are going into our bathrooms and THIS is what you're talking about???

 

I had no idea what a Brexit even was, until now.  Sounds like a breath mint brand.  I don't see what the problem is with being in the European Union, or not being.  Deep political stipulations?  Taxes on milk?  I didn't understand half of the jargon in that letter, but if you're just living in the country, not caring about political nonsense... doesn't sound like a problem.  Sure.  Get away from them.  Be free, like food samples.

[OmegaBolt]

It's a terrible idea to leave. I personally think the EU, although by no means perfect, is the only thing keeping our government in check. Already they brushed up against Europe's human rights charter, so they wanted to write their own which would by far reduce our rights so they can continue to do away with disability support and other welfare. The EU even declared their cuts to disability care allowance as breaking human rights, which is fantastic (because it forces a reversal, not because we're breaking rights!). Things like TTIP I think can only be prevented in Europe thanks to the requirement of a unanimous vote, which seems unlikely. They talk about us getting our own, more beneficial trade deals, but 1) we'd still have to adhere to EU regulations in order to trade with the EU, 2) if we started trading more with the US in particular, we'd definitely (under Tory rule at least) reduce our standards to the abysmal US ones, who use chemicals on their foods that are illegal in the EU due to being known carcinogens. We'd further distance outselves from the almost utopic socialist elements Europe largely has that they're tyring to dismantle here, like our health system. The EU has fantastic quality protections our scummy neoliberal government want to get rid of. Free movement is fantastic (not that I can afford to make use of it, and I think that's why a lot of Britons don't appreciate it) and I've met so many wonderful Europeans thanks to it, and I wish there was more. Then that's not mentioning things like fishing restrictions that go towards helping preserve the habitat, the funding we receive from the EU on good schemes that would never be done by our government, climate change agreements that we'd never adhere to without the pressure of being in a "club" of nations, etc etc etc.

 

Anyway, I don't really know which way the wind is blowing but I hope (and suspect) IN will win. Afterall, Conservativism is in the minority despite them winning the election thanks to a crummy system and despite their ignorance being very loud, however we don't have a fair media so I don't think anyone will hear a straight line on this.

 

Patrick Steward did a Monty Python ripoff sketch about the European Convention of Human Rights: http://www.theguardi...ne-for-us-video

Edited by OmegaBolt, 26 April 2016 - 12:18 AM.

[duke_Qa]

Hehe. I'm worried that the conservatives are able to hit those mass-hysteria rhetorics on this subject. It's so easy to gather negative votes on something, even if it causes trouble for you in the long run.

 

The best answer to this, I suspect, is to play on the worry of the unknown. "there's too much that can happen, we can't really predict all the consequences of a brexit," etc.

 

Sort of like this

Spoiler

[OmegaBolt]

http://www.theguardi...rs-brexit-leave - "the online survey by Opinium puts the Leave side on 43%, four points ahead of Remain, on 39%"

 

Alarming. I love how every vote in this country is generally to see how much older generations can fuck over their kids. This place is such an uninformed shithole I can't even...

Edited by OmegaBolt, 17 May 2016 - 02:01 PM.

[duke_Qa]

Seems we're running headlong into another idiotic world war scenario where ignorance gets used to do silly things.

[CGRusty]

Maybe people are tired of being told what to do and what to think. The EU is just controlling the UK, we can't even deport people who are here illegally or hate preachers because they go crying for human rights to the EU.

[Pasidon]

You're not allowed to hate?  Nooooooooo...

[CGRusty]

Whats the point in moving to a country and then trying to change it like the country you came from? If you move to another country you should respect their laws and traditions (it works both ways, people from uk moving to other countries).

[OmegaBolt]

Maybe people are tired of being told what to do and what to think.

Like you are by our government who have been dismantling public services and benefiting corporations over people since Thatcher. The EU is not doing anything our own government doesn't do, and the vast majority of EU policies are beneficial to all of us, especially in regards to Human rights (the charter we wrote).

Yes we can deport people, and do often. http://www.migration...y-departures-uk

[CGRusty]

If the government wants to change the country then they can change the country, that's the whole point of the government. Why even have a government if they are told what to do by another organisation - lets just combine all the countries of Europe and let the EU rule.

[OmegaBolt]

If the government wants to change the country then they can change the country, that's the whole point of the government. Why even have a government if they are told what to do by another organisation - lets just combine all the countries of Europe and let the EU rule.

Eh? The point is the government makes changes regardless of what people want, you are not being served. And if you don't care what your government is doing then what does it matter to you if it's Brussels or Whitehall making the decisions?

The fact is the EU actually helps keep hold our government responsible when it comes to climate change commitments, not over farming fish populations, not completely destroying public welfare to help the disabled, hopefully not building way overpriced and inefficient new nuclear power plants, keeping plenty of carcinogenic toxins from being used to create our food etc etc. The EU helps maintain and starts many schemes in this country that our government never would, supporting the underprivileged, education, creative endeavours and so on. I dunno about you but I'd like a decent quality of living, not a capitalist playground that his country has been slowly transformed into, and particularly by Conservative governments since Misses T.

Our government already abstains from many good policies, like this one recently: http://fuw.org.uk/uk...or-agriculture/

[CGRusty]

I can understand that the EU has economic benefits to the UK. I like to see things from the other persons point of view (not that i agree the UK couldn't survive outside the Eu). But if you really can't see my point of view, that having an organisation telling a government what they can/can't do is a stupid idea then i am wasting my time here

[Pasidon]

If you think debating is a waste of time, I'm forced to wonder why you tried it in the first place.  Bolt is claiming that the EU has enough benefits to make separation more of a detriment than anything, and he explained that quite thoroughly.  You're claiming that the EU union is bad since it's making the UK government a middle-man in your political issues, and from this you're hinting on issues like: not being able to deport anyone you like and that priests are complaining.  ... Well?  Anything else?  You can't expect to win anyone over when you're just stating your opinion with minimal points.

[CGRusty]

I was just trying to explain why some people dislike the EU. As when I first read the thread it seems like you were adamant that the EU was a basket of sunshine and flowers and why would anyone speak badly about it. If you want more information about why people want to leave you can easily search it online.

[OmegaBolt]

But your point is just a vague notion of sovereignity, seemingly without understanding the current situation or what would come as a result of leaving. We are not 'ruled' by the EU, we are a part of it, one of the original creators and influence its direction heavily (often for the worse for citizens, such as voting against EU tax avoidance crackdown). We would lose a lot by leaving and not gain anything.

 

I already showed that we do deport a lot of people, including EU citizens, and those who go "crying for human rights" should do so. I hope to god that if I ever need fair treatment, it is available, not some despotic law that works at the whim of fickle public opinion.

 

As for trade partners, if we do leave then we still have to abide by EU regulations to trade with EU countries, except we have no say on what they are. If we find alternatives do you think our government would ensure such high standards? Don't you think they'd rather get the cheapest deal with inferior products that use known poisons and disasterous herbicides/pesticides, like for instance in the US? Don't you think our government would immediately put through something akin to TTIP, literally throwing out your ideal of sovereignity immediately by allowing corporations to sue the government for curbing profits by protecting citizens rights and health? We know our government are pro TTIP, and would do it in a heartbeat, our only protection against those sell-out tactics are in the EU where there is plenty of opposition and one veto will stop it.

 

It feels like people always push further and further away the reasons for their problems, or just believe the scaremongering. If you don't want to be told what to think then tell our government to dismantle the media monopolies, where 70% of all newspaper output is from just three companies. That's not the EU whispering in your ear, that's our government allowing it to happen because they're bought. You don't have to look further than Westminster for causes of austerity, privitisation of public assets at record low costs by a government formed of people who are known to want to dismantle the NHS, the destruction of decent welfare services that is killing thousands and has now lead to the investigation by the United Nations for human rights violations. Westminster are doing their damnedest to completely ignore climate change, destroying our future. This is our government, not the EU. The EU is preventing it from getting even worse by providing a baseline standard, that you want to remove.

Edited by OmegaBolt, 21 May 2016 - 11:35 AM.

[CGRusty]

You seem to be ignoring my point, i didn't come here to try and persuade you to change your opinion. I am just saying a reason why some people do not like the EU. It's worrying that people can't see the control that the EU has.

 

Anyway, I think i have wasted enough time - I only came on to talk about C&C online and then i saw this post. 

[OmegaBolt]

And as I said, their reason is incredibly short sighted, and I made points to try show that. I don't know how all my posts are ignoring your points at all, they're specifically addressing them (although it's difficult because the argument is so vague).

 

Why would you be more worried about the EU than your own government? It is doing everything it can to screw you over right now, unlike the EU. If you want rid of the EU, then why not get rid of the UK government too? You could devolve the country into consituent parts, which would be good for self governance, but then I'd still like a guarantee of basic living standards and rights across all parts of it, which would have to be an international body.

[duke_Qa]

That was interesting, a look into the Leave perspective. When it comes to the UK, I find it fascinating that so many have swallowed the hook that the EU is worse than Tories and other right-wingers: Primary arguments for leaving is to force more of the good old conservative politics, painted as emotional "They abuse our systems, we must stahp them."

 

Those sort of politics act a lot like a lottery where you accept losers lose harder because winners might win more, and you might win if you're lucky. A lot of right wing politics is a lot like Russian roulette, where you bet on not getting the bullet.

 

Truth be told, I suspect the UK would have been much better off if they beheaded their political system and let Brussels run their nation the last 15 years or so.

[CGRusty]

Hows Norway getting on in the EU? Oh wait it's not even a member state. How does it even manage to survive without the EU? It must be anarchy over there.