7 replies to this topic

[TheLeRoi6]

Premise

So yes I have read the FAQ and I know that no more factions can be added, but I also know that we can do subfactions in the form of what's available for Erebor or what is being done with Adventure Factions for 8.0. I am relatively new to AotR, but I played BFME back when it first came out and I have recently come back from a very long hiatus. I have always dreamed of having a Rhun faction, to me they always were by far the most interesting of the people groups that Tolkien gave vague and mysterious hints and insinuations about in the lore. Needless to say I was quite surprised when I discovered that the great mod AotR doesn't even include them as a subfaction, So I would like to argue in favor for its inclusion as a subfaction in some form. Here is my reasoning...

 

Arguments

"We decided against Rhûn early in development of Age of the Ring due to it requiring a far greater degree of fan invention and wasn't as interesting as a potential setting as the vast deserts, jungles, and creatures of Haradwaith."

-This statement leaves me rather confused. Far greater degree of fan invention than Harad? Really? I mean no offense, but every single one of the heroes in Harad is a fan invention and the units of Rhun would be inventions to the same degree as those of Harad. In fact, Tolkien describes their armament in passing just as well as Harad's and we have flat out gorgeous depictions of Easterlings from the films. We don't have names of tribes and clans in Rhun, sure, but there are a few vague regional names available for enough to work with in my opinion.

-Also, Rhun offers a vast amount of settings as well. The Sea of Rhun itself with its rivers and islands, the steppes or plains to the north and east, the forest of Neldoreth northeast of the Sea of Rhun, the Orocarni Mountains and its four dwarven clans, the expanses of Khand, the East Sea, the mysteries of the Wild Woods of Hildorien which as far as I know were never destroyed, and the Last Desert with its were-worms (who cares if it's just a Hobbit myth, it has just as much lore backing as the apes of the deep South).

-While maybe not as abundant in strange creatures as AotR's Harad, we actually have to work with less fan invention than giant vultures, scorpions, or hyena wargs. Namely there are the earlier mentioned were-worms (whatever they are), along with the Kine of Araw (giant auroch like creatures) and the pards (giant felines of Hobbit myth), all of which are mentioned just as much as other mysterious creatures in other factions.

 

I've also seen arguments suggesting that Easterling units should remain in Mordor because of their close connection with Sauron throughout their thousands of years of servitude. They were an essential part of his armies in the Third Age.

-Honestly I see this as more of a reason for their separation, for same could be said of the Haradhrim and Umbar, who sided with Sauron almost since the beginning of their history, or factions like Dol Guldur which were literally led by Sauron himself at points. Rhun was part of Sauron's plan since the Second Age, in fact he was accredited with uniting them then and bringing them into civilization. After his fall, both in the Second Age and in Dol Guldur, he fled to the East where he had great support. To me, this shows them not as part of Mordor, but part of Sauron's greater design much like Dol Guldur or Umbar. If anything, Rhun was the center of Sauron's identity as the "High Priest of Morgoth", not Harad as AotR seems to be leaning towards.

-Along with this, Rhun displayed the same amount of autonomy from Sauron that Harad did. They had their own leaders, though not named, who led them in multiple invasions of Gondor and Rhovanion (more than Harad did btw) throughout the Third Age, over which Sauron had no direct influence. There also appears to be some strife within Rhun itself, with Tolkien stating that the Blue Wizards had managed to diminish the forces coming from Rhun by helping stir up rebellion. This shows that they were not just another mindless horde of Sauron.

-The removal of Easterling units from Mordor creates a hole I realize, but I think this could be filled with two possible solutions. One being adding more Orcish units which I could give some suggestions for. Secondly, making it so each of the different "Evil Men" auxiliaries are available as opposed to just Easterlings, this could be done in several viable ways.

 

Conclusion

So that all being said, I do have actual suggestions for what the roster and heroes could be like that I would be happy to share if there is interest (Clans, dwarves, Variags, war wagons, legions, and beasts, oh my!). I recall hearing that part of the reason you all decided to do an Arthedain Adventure Faction was because someone gave suggestions that made it seem interesting, so hopefully I can do the same! To be clear, this is not a suggestion for a new faction, but I subfaction. I think the best option would be to give the player a choice of Rhun or Harad (as I believe Harad's mechanics fit well with my suggestion), as Adventure Factions are too limiting in my humble opinion.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere or have said anything forbidden. I have really enjoyed this mod and appreciate the hard work that has gone into it. it's because I enjoyed this mod immensely but personally feel that to be complete it should have Rhun. I'd be willing to help make it happen. In the end, this mod belongs to the AotR team and they decide what makes it complete. I only want to throw out my thoughts in the hopes that it creates inspiration and maybe can make Rhun look interesting enough to change their minds. (edited for clarity)

Edited by TheLeRoi6, 31 October 2022 - 08:39 PM.

[TheLeRoi6]

Just to be clear, these are just my ideas that I hope can be an inspiration. If by any chance the AotR team would change their minds and decide to do a Rhûn subfaction, then they should do it how they want to do it. I recognize how massive this post is, I'm attempting to throw stuff at the wall here to see if anything sticks. It's always easier to make cuts.

 

Core Set-up

I would suggest going the route of making Rhûn a subfaction of Haradwaith, which can be chosen by the player at the beginning of the match in a similar manner to Erebor’s two factions. From what I know, this would allow maximum flexibility and diversity within the roster itself. I personally prefer Haradwaith over Morder because I feel the system already in place is the most suitable one for Rhûn’s mechanics.

There are two routes to go with in my opinion…

1. Build directly off of Haradwaith to keep it simple. This would mean completely changing out the units and heroes, while modifying some of the buildings and the Spellbook but retaining the core structure.

2. Go with a completely new system as much as possible with completely different buildings and spells along with the units and heroes. I would envision a much more nomadic system for the “early game”, with the steppes and plains being the center of life for the clans of Rhûn and Khand. The great stone cities built by Sauron’s servants in the Second Age then form the basis of the “late game”, hypothetically centered around the Sea of Rhûn and the Orocarni Mountains.

While I personally like the 2nd option more, I’m going to lean more towards option 1 in this presentation for simplicity's sake. I’m also uncertain how much a subfaction or adventure faction can actually differ from the core faction it is based off of.

 

For design inspiration, I would suggest looking to a mixture of Chinese and Anatolian Turkic elements for the regions around the Sea of Rhûn, Persian and Central Asian for Khand, and a variety of inspiration for the farther lands including Hunnic, Mongolian, Indian (Northern and Southern), Southeast Asian, Japanese, and Siberian.

 

 

Buildings and Units

Those marked as “LotRSBG Inspired” come from the Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game or Game Workshop models. 

Mill or Pasture: Basic resource building, either works in my opinion

Guard Tower: Pretty self explanatory

Mustering Ground

• Clan Chieftain: Based off of the Thrallmaster from RotWK and the Harondor Warlord counterpart, can summon units from the various regions of Rhûn. I’m fairly certain we can’t have this many, and some of the names are iffy at best, but here is what I have come up with.

• Note: Alternative names are sourced from the very-non-canonical New Notion Club Archives.

  • Runaer Warband: Spears and shields

    • Runaer is likely just another name for Rhûn from a map in the Hobbit, gives it a bit more flavor and is representing the more agrarian lands directly around the Sea of Rhûn. More ornately dressed and armed, maybe in a style similar to Dale and Dorwinion.

    • Alternatively: Hazga Warband

  • Balchoth Raiders: Javelins, swords, and shields

    • Used to represent the Easterlings within the flatlands south of the Sea of Rhûn and within Rhovanion proper itself. While not as rich as the lands around the Sea of Rhûn, these lands were still prosperous for herdsmen and farmers. I see them as more Turkic in style, think Almogavar in terms of unit usage itself. 

  • Neldorethi Stalkers: Bows

    • “On an early draft map for The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien indicated that Neldoreth was the name of the forest bordering the north-eastern shore of the Sea of Rhûn. This forest went unnamed in later maps.”, this could be changed to something more “Rhûnic” in style. Units could have a Siberian Turkic or ancient Scythian appearance.

    • Alternatively: Urgath Stalkers, from forested lands east of the Sea of Rhun.

  • Gobi/Last Desert Nomads: Mounted (bactrian camels?), armed with bows

    • The Last Desert is mentioned only in The Hobbit. When Bilbo Baggins insisted to Thorin and Company that he was fit to be the burglar on their quest, he said he was willing to travel to the "East of East" which, according to him, was the location of a region known as the "Last Desert" In the earliest drafts of The Hobbit, Bilbo offered to walk from The Shire "to [cancelled: Hindu Kush] the Great Desert of Gobi and fight the Wild Wire worm(s) of the Chinese. ~Of course this directly comes from the IRL Gobi, but it wouldn’t be the first such stretch.

    • Alternatively: Logath Nomads, from the lands north of the Sea of Rhun.

    • Rather than going with the Bedouin or Arabic look, go more Mongolian, as the Gobi desert is the direct connection here.

  • Noroth/Hanako Thugs: Maces and clubs

    • “In a draft for what would become the chapter The Shadow of the Past from The Fellowship of the Ring, it is mentioned that the Necromancer was rallying his forces and causing wars and devastation from his stronghold in Mordor, and that giants were said to be among those forces. There, the giants were described as "a Big Folk only far bigger and stronger than Men the [?ordinary] Big Folk, and no stupider, indeed often full of cunning and wizardry." An early root for "giant" is given as NOROTH. This yields Quenya norsa,[27] and Noroth (likely supposed to be a Noldorin word[1]). A discarded Quenya word was hanako, from a root KHAN-AK.[2]

    • Alternatively: Hurmkarnuli Thugs, from the foothills of the Orocarni.

    • In appearance I’m thinking a hybrid between the Indian Thuggees and strongmen and ancient Minoans. I personally like the thought of horned helmets. Beorning model would be a good base.

  • Palisori/Pala Brigands: Torches, mounted on horses

    • The lore reasoning here is that Palisor over time could have become the name of a more specific region of steppe, as “According to Christopher Tolkien's reading of the Qenya Lexicon, 'Palisor' is derived from the root PALA, "whose derivatives have a common general sense of 'flatness', among them palis 'sward, lawn', whence no doubt Palisor”.

    • Alternatively: Nuriag Brigand, from the flatlands between the Sea of Rhun and Khand

    • Think Hunnic raiders and pillagers, light mounted units that deal fire damage and cause chaos.

• Clan Champions: Two-handed glaives or axes

  • Best warriors of the clans, well armed and equipped by their Chieftains.

Beast Tamer’s Guild

• Falcons: Hunting falcons, either one or several in a group.

• Pards: Wild-cats

  • “Pards were feline creatures only mentioned in Hobbit poetry. Apparently the pards lived in wooded lands of the East (perhaps referring to the lands beyond Rhûn, the Uttermost East). The beast, "fleet upon feet", leaped on its prey from above.” Faster, but weaker than wargs.

• Kine of Araw

  • Not as big as the Beast of Gorgoroth, but faster.

  • Maybe give them some sort of upgrade where a small tower can be built on their back? I picture them as a poor-man’s mumakil, with upgrades available for war paint, metal tips or armaments for their horns, etc.

• Were-wyrms

  • If they existed, they came from the East

Wainwright's Guild

• Wainriders

  • Contrary to popular belief a wain is not a chariot, it is a wagon or cart, suggesting more of a platform. I never envisioned the Easterlings riding light, Egyptian style chariots, but rather large Mesopotamian style chariots with 4 or more horses and maybe even four wheels. They would have at least 4 riders, including a driver, two archers, and a spearman, with maybe more in addition. These are freaking tanks.

• War Wagon/Great Wagon

  • It’s clear that some of Tolkien’s inspiration for Rhûn was from the Far East, which of course includes the nomads of the great steppes. Here we have the largest of the wains, essentially a massive Mongol style mobile yurt pulled by Kine of Araw. Basically a mobile fortress.

Engineer's Guild

• Naffatun: Unit that throws fire bombs and uses other combustive toys

• War Rockets: Historically the Chinese were famous for their rockets. I'm not a huge fan of gunpowder being used in Middle Earth because of reasons, but technically fireworks are already part of the movie lore. Gandalf got them from somewhere.

• Flamethrower: As was already previewed

 

 

Legionary Barracks: Place for the training of the Dragon Horde/Legion/Banners, whatever historical basis sounds best. (Names with creative license could be added, I believe there are some already coming in 8.0 if they aren't in already.)

Note: The shields from the movie set were designed with the ability to be strapped to the arm, enabling two-handed usage of weapons. Halberds and bows could be used with the shield, meaning that the "swordsman" unit could be merged into a toggle-able unit..

• Khân-pâlanax: In game

• Khân-xâtanax: In game

• Khân-yû-âkhax: In game

• Khân-kâtaphrax: In game

• Khân Drummers: Mounted on horses with drums on either side, meant to boost the moral and prowess of the legions.

• Dragon Knights: In game

• Banner, armour, and weapon upgrades are researched here.

Temple of the God-King

• Acolyte (LotRSBG Inspired): Knives and shady attacks. Assassins and servants of the War Priests.

• Temple Guard: Two handed swords or hammers. Would possibly fit best as a summonable unit only.

• War Priest (LotRSBG Inspired): Staff-ax, conjurers and magicians. They act as both captains of the legions and the priests of Sauron.

Imperial Court/Embassy: I’m basing the imperial control of the Dragon Emperor of Rhun to something similar to the Chinese tributary system, but instead of gifts he demands soldiers. 

• Envoy: Special unit that passively collects resources or can build either an Orocarni Hall, Khandist Yurt, or Sanctuary of the Dark East. After building something it disappears.

Orocarni Hall: For those who are not familiar with the idea of “evil” dwarves…
In regards to the War of the Last Alliance Tolkien states, “All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.” 

In the essay “Dwarves and Men” (which Christopher Tolkien published in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Volume XII of The History of Middle-earth), we find an interesting note:

For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. [This was a later pencilled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: ‘Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.’]

And finally from the Hobbit we have…
“They (Goblins) did not hate Dwarves especially, no more than they hated everybody and everything, and particularly the orderly and prosperous; in some parts Wicked Dwarves had even made alliances with them.”

Aesthetically, I like the idea of the Orocarni dwarves being based off of the ancient Assyrians, Babylonians, and other Mesopotamian peoples, braided beards and all.

• Orocarni Venturers: Mercenaries and adventurers, going far and wide to seek riches and fame, some are veterans of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs who became discontent after years of fighting but have little else to do with their lives anymore. Not certain on armament…

• Orocarni Watchers: Chu-ko-nu style repeating crossbows anyone? Would be a deadly weapon in the confined spaces of the dwarven halls and keeps.

• Orocarni Wardens: First row with swords and shields, second row with spears

• Siege Engine: The dwarves don’t always get along, greed is a powerful force that can lead even close friends to come to blows. A dwarven vault is a tough nut to crack, and requires some engineering.

Khandish Yurt

• Warriors of Khand: Bows, axes or swords, and shields

• Variag Horsemen: Bows and glaives

• Variag Chariots: Fast and agile with a driver and a rider armed with a bow or spear.

  • Scythed Wheels Upgrade

Sanctuary of the Dark East: The Far East is a mysterious place where the histories of elves and men began but the fate of their homelands is never revealed in the legendarium. Who is to say they are gone?

• First Men of Hildor: “Great axes” (and beards).

  • Those mentioned in the Pelennor Fields who were unknown to the Gondorians

  • No evidence that the lands of Hildor ever vanished or were destroyed, no reason for men to stop living in their original homeland.

  • Maybe Ainu and ancient Japanese in appearance, or go more of a Polynesian/Maori route.

• Avari of the Wild Wood: Bows

  • Cuivienen is gone, but many Avari never left the East as far as we know. Many were already under Melkor’s influence before the other elven families left Cuivienen, maybe those who were not turned into orcs remained in the shadows of their forest homes of the Wild Woods.

  • For their appearance maybe draw from the tribal peoples of Indochina and Southeast Asia

• Kaukareldar/Dark Fays: Swords? An ethereal unit of sorts so more centered on support, maybe give them instruments to play and magical attacks to support their “fay” like qualities.

  • Fays are really only found in the early versions of the legendarium, likely abandoned for the Maiar, but the idea of twisted spirits under Melkor’s  sway working amongst the early elves and men was retained. It’s possible Sauron still had some allies among these fallen spirits (or Maiar) in the hidden lands of the east which he used to sway the hearts and wills of men. The east has long been Sauron’s refuge when he was in hiding, it is likely that he has many agents there.

  • I have always envisioned Sauron using more of a deceptive "angel of light" guise among the Easterlings, not as outright dark and sinister. These Kaukareldar would likewise be less wraiths, and more twisted spirits of nature along the lines of the early fay or of hidden origin such as Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant. Or they could merely be corrupted spirits of Maiar, men, elves, or other creatures like those likely within the Barrow Wights or Watchers of Cirith Ungol.

  • The armour of the Native Americans of the American Northwest, such as the Haida, Nootka, or Tlingit, are pretty fitting for woodland spirits in my opinion. Their knives and weapons are gorgeous too. A strange mixture of beautiful and freakish.

Heroes

• Ulda: Personal invention, beast tamer and huntsman  of Rhûn armed with a bow and knives. Can tame wild creatures.

• Tumyra (Based on Tomyris): Personal invention, female clan leader wielding a spear, can mount a horse. Early game light hero.

• Dhuddamli Ironfist: Personal invention, Orocarni Warlord, armed with a sword and shield. Boosts Orocarni units and recruitable from the Orocarni Hall.

• Khusra (Play on Khosrow): Personal invention, ruler of the Variags, wields a glaive and can mount a chariot. Boosts Khandish units and recruitable from the Khandish Yurt.

• Amdur (LotRSBG Inspired): Blademaster of Rhûn, personal guard of the Dragon Emperor. Wields a two handed sword

• Rutabi (LotRSBG Inspired): General of the dragon horde armed with a sword and shield. Trusted military advisor and leader for the Dragon Emperor. Can toggle a horse mount.

• Brórgîr (LotRSBG Inspired): Chief war priest of Rhûn, goes with the Dragon Horde to war armed with a staff-ax and his knowledge of magic and conjurations. 

• The Prime Minister: Personal invention, a Kaukareldar or dark spirit, and servant of Sauron who has the ear of the Dragon Emperor of Rhûn. While the Dragon Emperor is the clear unifier and ruler of the clans and cities of Rhûn, some wonder if the true power of the realm lies with this dark, mysterious figure.

• Dragon Emperor of Rhûn (LotRSBG Inspired): The Great Khan of the Clans and Emperor of all Rhûn, one who sits upon the Dragon Throne, the Hand of Sauron, the ruler Under the Endless Heavens, Mandated by Melkor. He is second only to Melkor and his high priest, Sauron. All men must  view him as being nigh unto godhood. 

  • Carried about on a massive royal palanquin by his elite bodyguard, a figurehead in reality but the representative of Sauron’s will in name. Has various passive buffs, summoning abilities, and fights enemies with his unit of attending guards.

• Ring Hero - Annatar: The Lord of Gifts, in which form Sauron would have initially wooed the realms of the East in the Second Age. Yes, Sauron's fair form was destroyed in the Fall of Numenor, but that would have included Zigur as well, which is the Ring Hero for Haradwaith. A beautiful, yet terrifying figure.

  • As mentioned earlier, I personally envision Sauron using more of a deceptive "angel of light" guise among the Easterlings, not as outright dark and sinister. This fits with Tolkiens description of him in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, “he named himself Lord of the Earth. A mask he still could wear so that if he wish he might deceive the eyes of Men, seeming to them wise and fair.”

  • Further on Tolkien states, "In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and armed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceeding, for he surrounded his abode with fire."

Spellbook

Tier 1

Horn of the Khan - Target allies gain +25% damage, +25% armour for 60 seconds.

Eastern Medicine - Basic heal units and revive one unit per horde.

Imperial Tribute - Drops gatherable resources

Tier 2

Nomads of the Steppe- +10% resources from Rhûnic production buildings and +10% unit movement speed. Passive ability.

Stinging Swarm- Summons a swarm of stinging insects which cause damage to enemy units and causes them to flee

Stone Fortresses of Rhûn - Summons a guard tower garrisoned by archers with fire arrows.

Emperor of the East - Unlocks the Imperial Court/Embassy and temporarily decreases unit build time.

Tier 3

Stampede - A stampede of Kine utterly destroys the area within the selected zone and any units or buildings within.

Southron Allies - Summons a Mumakil and several Haradrim units.

Khamul the Easterling  - Summons Khamul the Nazgul, remains until killed.

Tier 4

Dark Plague - A great pestilence sickens all enemies within the radius and taints the ground for a time, anyone who enters it also becomes sick.

The Golden Wyrm- Summons the Golden Wyrm, a monstrous were-wyrm from the lands of the Far East.

Edited by TheLeRoi6, 06 December 2022 - 09:03 PM.

[Dúnedain76]

Sorry, but this just isn't something we are interested in doing. 8.0 is the last release we will be working on and what you are suggesting is adding things that don't really interest us onto an already heavy workload. It's just not in the cards, we're happy with what we've got. There are folks in the community though who have eyes on doing Rhûn submods, perhaps they'll have what you are looking for.

[TheLeRoi6]

Sorry, but this just isn't something we are interested in doing. 8.0 is the last release we will be working on and what you are suggesting is adding things that don't really interest us onto an already heavy workload. It's just not in the cards, we're happy with what we've got. There are folks in the community though who have eyes on doing Rhûn submods, perhaps they'll have what you are looking for.

Well... I tried I guess. Any pointers as to who some of those folks are? Unfortunately I am not much of BFME modder myself (nor do I have the time really)

[Esparado87]

Easterling Emperor is the one making a Rhun Sub mod (on Discord, Age of the Ring channel).

[Mathijs]

Premise

So yes I have read the FAQ and I know that no more factions can be added, but I also know that we can do subfactions in the form of what's available for Erebor or what is being done with Adventure Factions for 8.0. I am relatively new to AotR, but I played BFME back when it first came out and I have recently come back from a very long hiatus. I have always dreamed of having a Rhun faction, to me they always were by far the most interesting of the people groups that Tolkien gave vague and mysterious hints and insinuations about in the lore. Needless to say I was quite surprised when I discovered that the great mod AotR doesn't even include them as a subfaction, So I would like to argue in favor for its inclusion as a subfaction in some form. Here is my reasoning...

 

Arguments

"We decided against Rhûn early in development of Age of the Ring due to it requiring a far greater degree of fan invention and wasn't as interesting as a potential setting as the vast deserts, jungles, and creatures of Haradwaith."

-This statement leaves me rather confused. Far greater degree of fan invention than Harad? Really? I mean no offense, but every single one of the heroes in Harad is a fan invention and the units of Rhun would be inventions to the same degree as those of Harad. In fact, Tolkien describes their armament in passing just as well as Harad's and we have flat out gorgeous depictions of Easterlings from the films. We don't have names of tribes and clans in Rhun, sure, but there are a few vague regional names available for enough to work with in my opinion.

-Also, Rhun offers a vast amount of settings as well. The Sea of Rhun itself with its rivers and islands, the steppes or plains to the north and east, the forest of Neldoreth northeast of the Sea of Rhun, the Orocarni Mountains and its four dwarven clans, the expanses of Khand, the East Sea, the mysteries of the Wild Woods of Hildorien which as far as I know were never destroyed, and the Last Desert with its were-worms (who cares if it's just a Hobbit myth, it has just as much lore backing as the apes of the deep South).

-While maybe not as abundant in strange creatures as AotR's Harad, we actually have to work with less fan invention than giant vultures, scorpions, or hyena wargs. Namely there are the earlier mentioned were-worms (whatever they are), along with the Kine of Araw (giant auroch like creatures) and the pards (giant felines of Hobbit myth), all of which are mentioned just as much as other mysterious creatures in other factions.

 

I've also seen arguments suggesting that Easterling units should remain in Mordor because of their close connection with Sauron throughout their thousands of years of servitude. They were an essential part of his armies in the Third Age.

-Honestly I see this as more of a reason for their separation, for same could be said of the Haradhrim and Umbar, who sided with Sauron almost since the beginning of their history, or factions like Dol Guldur which were literally led by Sauron himself at points. Rhun was part of Sauron's plan since the Second Age, in fact he was accredited with uniting them then and bringing them into civilization. After his fall, both in the Second Age and in Dol Guldur, he fled to the East where he had great support. To me, this shows them not as part of Mordor, but part of Sauron's greater design much like Dol Guldur or Umbar. If anything, Rhun was the center of Sauron's identity as the "High Priest of Morgoth", not Harad as AotR seems to be leaning towards.

-Along with this, Rhun displayed the same amount of autonomy from Sauron that Harad did. They had their own leaders, though not named, who led them in multiple invasions of Gondor and Rhovanion (more than Harad did btw) throughout the Third Age, over which Sauron had no direct influence. There also appears to be some strife within Rhun itself, with Tolkien stating that the Blue Wizards had managed to diminish the forces coming from Rhun by helping stir up rebellion. This shows that they were not just another mindless horde of Sauron.

-The removal of Easterling units from Mordor creates a hole I realize, but I think this could be filled with two possible solutions. One being adding more Orcish units which I could give some suggestions for. Secondly, making it so each of the different "Evil Men" auxiliaries are available as opposed to just Easterlings, this could be done in several viable ways.

 

Conclusion

So that all being said, I do have actual suggestions for what the roster and heroes could be like that I would be happy to share if there is interest (Clans, dwarves, Variags, war wagons, legions, and beasts, oh my!). I recall hearing that part of the reason you all decided to do an Arthedain Adventure Faction was because someone gave suggestions that made it seem interesting, so hopefully I can do the same! To be clear, this is not a suggestion for a new faction, but I subfaction. I think the best option would be to give the player a choice of Rhun or Harad (as I believe Harad's mechanics fit well with my suggestion), as Adventure Factions are too limiting in my humble opinion.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere or have said anything forbidden. I have really enjoyed this mod and appreciate the hard work that has gone into it. it's because I enjoyed this mod that I want to see it become the best mod yet, and to do that you need Rhun!

 

Not sure what confuses you. The heroes of Haradwaith are all invented (by us and Games Workshop) but we know about Harondor, the history of Umbar, Corsairs, Thorongil's attack, Black Númenóreans, we know about the distant jungles, Mûmakil, apes, we know about the Black Serpent, we have fairly detailed descriptions of what the Haradrim looked like, etc. etc. whereas with Rhûn, we only have a rough geographical outline, some ancient military footnotes of their invasions, and little else. The statement is that Rhûn requires a 'greater degree of fan invention' than Haradwaith, not 'Haradwaith requires no fan invention whereas Rhûn does'. You're describing what we're saying: a greater degree of fan invention, one that doesn't interest us much. The idea that we "don't even include them as a subfaction" is a bit silly, given that Mordor has a large roster of Easterling units that are fully fleshed out - that meets my definition of 'subfaction', at least.

 

Arthedain was developed because of a suggestion coming from inside the core team, by someone who has the ability to actually make it a reality. That's pretty different. The big misunderstanding that underscores this post though is the idea that we can be reasoned into doing something that we just don't want to do. You can provide us with every argument in the book (though we have heard and thought of them all before), but you can't give us the time, motivation, technical solutions required to make it a reality because it just doesn't interest us. I thoroughly dislike the notion that we have to do precisely what you want in order to become the 'best mod yet'. That's kind of gross, honestly. 

 

If we end up doing a Rhûn adventure faction, it'll be according to our own specifications, based on what we want to do, and what we're capable of doing with the time we have.

[TheLeRoi6]

Not sure what confuses you. The heroes of Haradwaith are all invented (by us and Games Workshop) but we know about Harondor, the history of Umbar, Corsairs, Thorongil's attack, Black Númenóreans, we know about the distant jungles, Mûmakil, apes, we know about the Black Serpent, we have fairly detailed descriptions of what the Haradrim looked like, etc. etc. whereas with Rhûn, we only have a rough geographical outline, some ancient military footnotes of their invasions, and little else. The statement is that Rhûn requires a 'greater degree of fan invention' than Haradwaith, not 'Haradwaith requires no fan invention whereas Rhûn does'. You're describing what we're saying: a greater degree of fan invention, one that doesn't interest us much. The idea that we "don't even include them as a subfaction" is a bit silly, given that Mordor has a large roster of Easterling units that are fully fleshed out - that meets my definition of 'subfaction', at least.

That is a reasonable counter-argument. Where I would slightly disagree, is that there are unique places in Rhun that to my knowledge have just as much mention in the legendarium as the distant jungles or creatures that are just as well known as the apes. But I do agree that outside of some very vague names and descriptions we know very little about the people and places of Rhun. My statement was "Far greater degree of fan invention than Harad? Really?", which I now realize was a bit antagonistic, but I still feel that Rhun can be done properly with a lot of help from the legendarium and without needing to use imaginary clan names.

 

To further clarify, by sub-faction I mean along the lines of choosing to play as just Rhun and not Morder, in the same sense of playing as just Arthedain and not Gondor.

 

Arthedain was developed because of a suggestion coming from inside the core team, by someone who has the ability to actually make it a reality. That's pretty different. The big misunderstanding that underscores this post though is the idea that we can be reasoned into doing something that we just don't want to do. You can provide us with every argument in the book (though we have heard and thought of them all before), but you can't give us the time, motivation, technical solutions required to make it a reality because it just doesn't interest us. I thoroughly dislike the notion that we have to do precisely what you want in order to become the 'best mod yet'. That's kind of gross, honestly.

Ah I deeply apologize for coming off in such a gross way. I was not intending to try and manipulate, just to state my appreciation for the work you all have done while injecting a little humor, but it came off differently than I intended. In no way do you have to do what I want to make the mod great, I know I'm not the only one who is fascinated by Rhun's lore and history but if the team is not then that is their decision. What I should have said is that to me the mod feels incomplete without Rhun, but if that is not what the team creating it feels then that is completely their call.

 

I have been involved in other, non-BFME modding projects involving in-depth  historical research, and usually in those circles in order to get someone to listen to your ideas you must present an argument such as I tried here. It tends to be very suggestion based, as it is often the first step to finding the useful information we need. Under that perspective, I thought this would be the best platform and means to present my thoughts. I should not have assumed the same approach would be expected here on a LotR centered project based on a completely different gaming platform. I did not properly analyze the tone of the suggestion I was making, and for that I apologize once more. I can also completely relate with having noobs show up saying "WHY DON'T YOU ADD THIS?!?!?" when I as the creator simply don't have interest in doing it, so I am thrice sorry for doing that to you all as well.

 

In making this post my intention was to make my case in the hopes that it would inspire interest, and then if there was any interest in what I had come up with based off of the lore I would present them further. Perhaps I should have started with the ideas first. That being said, I am not a fan of people just to throwing ideas out there for other people to do, hence why I did not just give them outright. I do not make a suggestion without some willingness to back it up    I am interested in learning how to mod BFME (would not be my first such work), but I have been in enough projects to know that a beginning modder is often more of a detriment in a project than an actual help.

 

Does that make more sense? I hope that communicated my intentions more clearly.

Edited by TheLeRoi6, 31 October 2022 - 06:10 PM.

[TheLeRoi6]

I went ahead and edited the second post with my extensive suggestion. I'm not trying to push my point further or anything as I know it isn't going to happen (outside of a submod if I would get to it). I just figured why not? I had it all written out anyways and maybe someone will at least enjoy reading it or be able to give some critique