385 replies to this topic

[Silent_Killa]

Anarchy only works when people are responsible. People are not responsible. Personally this is why I think leftist policies are the WORST way to utopian anarchy, causing people to become dependant on the state and then taking the state away? Yeah, that'll work out well. On the other hand through progressive libertarianism with a proper education system, you can slowly push society into personal responsibility. Steadily taking the power away from the government, and handing it to the people.

100% agreed but it still doesn't mean capitalism is either because capitalism also ignores responsibilities.

That's where education comes in, in capitalism people believe their responsibility ends with themselves, but this is mainly due to how people are tought. Think about it, kids don't want to be businessmen, they want to be firemen, policemen, etc... but we're conditioned to abuse the system, to do the least amount of work while making the largest sum of money.

[Comrade Kal]

Why is it that Americans believe that libertarianism and left-wing politics are polar opposites? You seem to have this ridiculous notion that left-wing governments always end up with a state that gets more power. It's absurd.

And also, if you talk about people being reliant on the state, that only happens for money. When the concept of money is removed, the welfare state obviously becomes redundant.

[Pyth]

Peopel are greedy. As usch, we want a medium of exchange.

Money.

[Comrade Kal]

How, when the concept of property is eliminated? Marx said if communism can be summed up in one sentence, it's the abolition of all private property.

[Pyth]

Peopel will MAKE property. Someone will want provacy and claim a piece of land or an object theirs. And the cycle the mbegins again.

[Comrade Kal]

But that would be theft. Do people march into other people's homes today and claim it as their own?

[Pyth]

No, because it's already someone elses. And who says there won't be thieves in your society?

Edited by Pyth, 06 July 2006 - 07:41 PM.

[Comrade Kal]

Exactly, so all property, while your property, is also everybody elses, therefore you couldn't just claim something as your own. If there were theives, they'd be dealt with as they are today. People wouldn't thieve any more than they do today, if anything they'd theive a lot less, because:

a) it's theirs anyway
b) they have nothing to gain from it
c) they piss a lot more people off by stealing it

[Silent_Killa]

Why is it that Americans believe that libertarianism and left-wing politics are polar opposites? You seem to have this ridiculous notion that left-wing governments always end up with a state that gets more power. It's absurd.

When I say leftist policies, I'm generally refering to economic policies. Left wing economics = more government control over the economy. Right wing economics = less government control over the economy. Very simple really.

And also, if you talk about people being reliant on the state, that only happens for money. When the concept of money is removed, the welfare state obviously becomes redundant.

So the government is in control of goods then, same difference.

Exactly, so all property, while your property, is also everybody elses, therefore you couldn't just claim something as your own. If there were theives, they'd be dealt with as they are today. People wouldn't thieve any more than they do today, if anything they'd theive a lot less, because:

a) it's theirs anyway
b) they have nothing to gain from it
c) they piss a lot more people off by stealing it

Private property was designed to keep people for killing each other over who gets what when. For example, you make yourself a cup of coffee, I want a cup of coffee. Now, according to your "system" I have as much of a right to that cup of coffee as you do. So, how do we determine who gets the cup of coffee? A problem easily avoided with private property.

[Comrade Kal]

You take everything far too literally. Read up on it! It's a complicated system, and 'property is theft' is just 3 words which explain a very complex theory, not just for some fool on a forum to say "but..." and state stuff we've been tutored to 'know' since birth.

[Allied General]

You take everything far too literally. Read up on it! It's a complicated system, and 'property is theft' is just 3 words which explain a very complex theory, not just for some fool on a forum to say "but..." and state stuff we've been tutored to 'know' since birth.

Then please debate in a logical long winded matter instead of saying all the time "its a lot more complex then that"

Its becoming a automated response man.

Capitalism exists because people aren't all generous and helpful members of society.

Your right about no money that the welfare state is abolished because people won't give a arse about looking after anyone else because human natural nature is egotistical and self sufficent i.e. survival of the fittest.

Your dream is perfect Kal but people are inperfect and always will be.

[Comrade Kal]

They won't need to, because everyone will be equal and have the same posessions... jesus... this is like talking to a brick wall.

www.libcom.org read the FAQ.

[Allied General]

and this is like talking to a dreamer who hasn't seen reality

honestly ...

Kal everything u have is mine

How is a disabled person equal to a young, able worker?

Edited by Allied General, 08 July 2006 - 07:47 PM.

[Comrade Kal]

Read the FAQ. If my arguments are flimsy then yours are non-existant.

[Allied General]

Kal your arguments aren't flimsy there just invalid and we are proven right when you say the f word and capitalising everything with lots of !!!!

No one is equal Kal, look at the animal, there is one leader in a pride of lions they don't sit around arguing what animal to kill or what spot to move to.

Edited by Allied General, 08 July 2006 - 07:54 PM.

[Comrade Kal]

Where were they proved invalid? I gave an example of supermarkets draining rivers in Africa.

Oh yes, AG, I forgot humans run around naked hunting their own food.

[Allied General]

Kal not all supermarkets are evil you sterotyping bigot.

Kal also don't be so literal, use your brain to unravel the "complex" ideas.

Society needs leaders is my main point to implement such global change.

We not all gonna become anarachists tommorow you know.

Kal also hunter gathering societies are the most fairest societies.

You hunt to survive or you die.

If your fall ill and are not strong enough you die.

If you can't help out you die.

Edited by Allied General, 08 July 2006 - 08:02 PM.

[Comrade Kal]

I didn't say all supermarkets. I used Tesco's as an example. Other supermarkets are evil in other ways. Wal-mart restricting the media and promoting fundamentalism, fr'instance.

Why do we need leaders?

[Blodo]

All of you attacking left wing economic policies realise that total economic freedom leads to totalitarism? Corporate control is the first stage to fascism - just like Mussolini said.

Meanwhile the best sort of economy is production industries in the hands of the government, and leaving the processing industries for the private - but somewhat controlled - market. This way you eliminate monopolies on basic goods, and eliminate corporate power. And you allow people to own businesses. It's a first step to socialism.

It's that easy, and if someone high up actually wanted to eliminate corporate power, they would've done exactly this.

[Allied General]

according to Kal though money is wrong and having property is wrong.

Kal you views so far are just everything is captialism is wrong, no good is ever produced so helping starving children is wrong or funding renewable sources of energy is wrong.

Edited by Allied General, 08 July 2006 - 08:17 PM.