33 replies to this topic

[Malkor]

Sorry for my inactivity, I keep getting huge mental burnouts and I lose the motivation to do anything at all.

As the rest of you start racking up victories as the Eldar on the larger maps at the HARD setting of 1.75, be sure to upload your replays here so that I can witness your superior mastery and skills and learn from your example. I don't have what it takes.

Will try for sure.


Although it appears the installer gives me a slew of errors when I try to install...

Fixed. Time to give it a try.


Okay, I gave it a go. Quickest 4v4 ever. me as eldar, eldar ally, + 2 ork allies vs 2 sm and 2 chaos on Doom Chamber, on hardest. My rustiness shows as I'm too late in getting fire prisms for them to make a difference. As far as eldar are concerned, if they can't get fire prisms fast enough, or an Avatar, they are dead. Won't save the replay because it's a pretty straight forward game.

Not much else I can comment on. The AI seems more cautious when engaging bases which is a good thing. At one point an ally sent a dark reaper squad and a guardian squad to protect me from 3 predators and 20/20 chaos infantry, including both commanders, and ran through their entire army and got slaughtered in the process.

Also noticed the AI is placing its buildings more intelligently on doom chamber than it was before. (No more 10 dreads stuck in a hole in the back of their base)

As far as balance is concerned it's hard to tell in DoW with their stupid DPS system instead of actual raw numbers, but I would say turrets need at least double their current damage, and vypers ect need a bit better armor vs anti-vehicle weapons.

Edited by Malkor, 12 April 2006 - 07:47 PM.

[Excedrin]

As the rest of you start racking up victories as the Eldar on the larger maps at the HARD setting of 1.75, be sure to upload your replays here so that I can witness your superior mastery and skills and learn from your example. I don't have what it takes.

I haven't tried 1.75, but I'd be happy to post a couple 1v1 reps where I play as Eldar. Playing 2v2 with two humans would also be fine, but 2v2 with 1 human is kinda pointless.

Note that if resource sharing is on, then the AI ally manages it's power generators poorly, so it techs/produces slower than the dual AI team. The only reason a dual AI team has an advantage here is because they both build generators at the same time. As a human, if you only make generators when your AI ally does, it will achieve the same effect. Or simply turn resource sharing off...

Also, Eldar is still one of the strongest races in 1.41 (as in all previous versions of DoW and WA). I cringe every time you mention "imbalance." WA is imbalanced, but not the way you mean.

1st game res sharing off
http://dow.lerp.com/...0413.051858.rec
2nd game res sharing on
http://dow.lerp.com/...0413.053535.rec

Both games are Eldar+Eldar vs Chaos+Chaos on the Hard setting.
Eldar (human) team won both games without particularly good play (I floated a lot of req, and didn't tech fast enough).

Edited by Excedrin, 13 April 2006 - 12:57 PM.

[ThetaOrion]

No, I don't expect you to see it in 1vs1 games or small maps or AI vs AI games. I expect that Thud and Arkhan and everyone else would have seen it and commented on it if it were an issue there.

It's the huge epic 6 Player and 8 Player games where many different factions of AI are on the field and you are playing as the Eldar -- something where you get into tier 3 and tier 4 and the imbalances or the unfairness starts to show up or starts to pile up. It's like an ongoing or prolonged handicap for the human player and the AI allies. You just see that they aren't doing as well in the long run, and it happens over and over again from one map to the next.

Possible causes are many and thus hard to pinpoint.

1) It could be a slight built-in hardcoded favoritism for the Plain Vanilla 1.41 AI enemies.
2) It could be a specific Plain Vanilla 1.41 handicap on the human player's production capabilities shining through.
3) It could be the fact that the human player playing as the Eldar loses each and every skirmish that he fights from the beginning of the game until he is overrun 30 or 40 minutes later, a tiering thing, or a tier 3 and tier 4 thing over the long haul.
4) It could be nothing more than two enemy AI uniting their forces and heading straight to the human player's base first, instead of spreading the misery around to the AI allies as well.
5) It could be an imbalance in the Eldar's prolonged long-term production or research, or the fact that the Eldar units and tanks and research are just now too expensive for the new capabilities of the 1.75 enemy AI.
6) It is definitely a function of medium and larger maps, aka prolonged gameplay with many different AI factions on the field, a human in the mix and an AI ally on the field as well.
7) Or, it could be a combination of all these things.

But, I do thank you guys for taking the trend seriously and looking into it!

If there is really something to my observations and if there really is a trend, and large portions of the Skirmish Mod or many factions of the Mod are unwinnable at the HARD setting on the largest maps and the longest games in balanced team play, then Thud and Arkhan can be aware of it and be prepared for it when they get into work on version 1.80.

--

EDIT:

Other things to consider:

A) Oh, and before Thud does his selective thing and blames it all on large unofficial maps that he isn't going to support, I must again emphasize that the majority of these observations regarding a possible Eldar Nerf in 1.75 were done on 4P Mountain Trails. It's a Mountain Trails issue, and thus a valid issue for Thud to consider and observe.

B) I also considered the issue here:
http://forums.revora...showtopic=31095
after I had a couple of more days to think about it.

It could be nothing more than the fact that the 1.75 Enemy AI has gotten progressivly and noticeably better over time in the AI Skirmish Mod, while the production and research capabilities of the human player have not changed one bit to compensate for the massively improved enemy AI. This most recent theory of mine doesn't explain everything, but it can go a long ways towards explaining some of the prolonged long-haul large game things that I'm witnessing in 1.75 of the AI Skirmish Mod, at the HARD setting (also known as the normal average setting) of the mod.

C) It could also be that I'm just too old and not a good enough player for the the AI in the AI Skirmish Mod, but during the betas, I seemed to get wins easily enough at the HARD setting on the 1vs1 maps as the Chaos, SM, and IG. There's two parts to this game: the tier 1 and tier 2 online rush play that Relic has to make sure that they get right, and then there's the huge map prolonged Tier 4 epic gameplay against the AI that also has to be balanced and fixed and looked into by everyone involved.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 14 April 2006 - 01:55 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

Oh, here are the messages and the threads where Aralez and I and others talked about the importance of testing the Relic 1.5 future patch balance in late-game, Tier 4, long-term gameplay in this Winter Assault game as well. This subject, although focussed on the Orks in the Relic Forums is equally as valid when it comes to the Eldar or any other faction that doesn't seem to have long-term staying power on the large maps.

http://forums.relicn...8&postcount=314

http://forums.relicn...6&postcount=258

http://forums.relicn...1&postcount=261

http://forums.relicn...3&page=18&pp=15

Sorry, Excedrin, even though my posts are long, I apparently still didn't get across the message that this Eldar Nerf trend that I'm talking about in regards to AI Mod 1.75 (and now Steel Legion 1.5) is really a Medium sized map and Large sized map issue where you have an AI ally or two, and where the game often lasts into Tier 3 before they all gang up on you and you get completely overrun.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 14 April 2006 - 04:18 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

The Eldar Nerf at the HARD setting on the large maps could also be due to the Chaos being overpowered in the new 1.75.

The trend continued on into the new Steel Legion Mod as well:
http://forums.revora...ndpost&p=276833

I wish I had more time to play. I need to try more maps besides Mountain Trails and Soul Forge, though I did try lots of other small and large maps during the Betas when the Eldar Nerf trend first started to surface, so I'm doing the best I can. At least I have reported it, so now the experts can take it from there.

And again, thank you one and all for taking it seriously and looking into it so that I don't feel like I'm standing alone.

[Excedrin]

1) It could be a slight built-in hardcoded favoritism for the Plain Vanilla 1.41 AI enemies.
2) It could be a specific Plain Vanilla 1.41 handicap on the human player's production capabilities shining through.
3) It could be the fact that the human player playing as the Eldar loses each and every skirmish that he fights from the beginning of the game until he is overrun 30 or 40 minutes later, a tiering thing, or a tier 3 and tier 4 thing over the long haul.
4) It could be nothing more than two enemy AI uniting their forces and heading straight to the human player's base first, instead of spreading the misery around to the AI allies as well.
5) It could be an imbalance in the Eldar's prolonged long-term production or research, or the fact that the Eldar units and tanks and research are just now too expensive for the new capabilities of the 1.75 enemy AI.
6) It is definitely a function of medium and larger maps, aka prolonged gameplay with many different AI factions on the field, a human in the mix and an AI ally on the field as well.
7) Or, it could be a combination of all these things.

1) Does not exist
2) Does not exist
3) Bad play on the human's part is definitely possible, I'm not sure what "tiering thing or tier 3 tier 4 thing over the long haul" means.
4) As far as I know, the AI tries to attack where there's low army cost, so if one player is teching very fast, they'll typically get targetted.
5) The only Eldar imbalances are things that make Eldar, as a race, overpowered.
6) Resource sharing is probably the biggest factor.
7) ok
8) I wish you'd stop using terms related to balance to describe poor play on the AI's part. "nerf" and "overpowered" don't apply when describing someone's skill, unless it's in jest ("Wow, nerf that guy, he's overpowered!").

Edited by Excedrin, 14 April 2006 - 05:24 AM.

[LarkinVB]

There is no trend, the AI is not nerfing/overpowering any race and there are no hidden resource cheats.
The AI v1.75 is basically the same than v1.6 - just better. That's all. No secret, no conspirancy, no special code since 1.6.

Edited by LarkinVB, 14 April 2006 - 09:07 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

I turned off Resource Sharing, back during the Beta 7 with -dev without -dev controversy.

Resource sharing has been off during my whole losing streak with the Eldar, during the past month or more of trying.

Yes, I just gotta stop playing as the Eldar. I can't win as the Eldar at the HARD setting on Mountain Trails and Mortalis and Soul Forge with the AI Skirmish Mod and the 1.5 Steel Legion Mod, so no use trying any further.

Have to go back to playing as Chaos, Space Marines, and now the Steel Legion, all factions that I can win as on these maps. Playing as the Steel Legion on a large map at the HARD setting doesn't give you the impression or the feeling that you are going to lose each and every encounter like happens with the Eldar.

--

Everyone freaks out when I use the word 'balance'. You guys must define it differently, just so that you can have a reverse controversy to complain about. But, 'balance' in this case as I'm using it and defining it is NOT about poor play on the AI's part as Excedrin complains, it's about the human stats or the human resources not being increased while at the same time over the past four months the AI has gotten better or buffed up or overpowered or whatever.

I think Larkin has probably nailed it on the head. The AI is simply much better, and meanwhile there has been no improvement in the human's players resources and stats to compensate. The human player no longer has the resources he needs to win with some of these factions at the HARD setting on some of these maps where there are a lot of AI, and that definitely creates a feeling of imbalance, whether you agree with my explanation or not, or whether you have witnessed the phenomenon or not, or whether you want to use the word 'imbalance' or not. The enemy AI has been significantly improved while at the same time the human player hasn't received one perk or improvement to compensate.

The bottom line, it's nearly impossible for the human player to establish a foothold, hold ground, and win at the HARD setting with some of these factions. Said another way, the AI Skirmish Mod hasn't been playtested enough with a human in the mix on the larger maps and hasn't received any upgrades or improvements for the human player at the HARD setting, while the AI has gotten progressively better over time. On some of these larger maps going up against some of these factions, the HARD enemy AI of the 1.75 AI Skirmish Mod has become like the INSANE enemy AI of the 1.41 Plain Vanilla of six months ago, in terms of production at least. They just simply outproduce you three to one, and they are now stronger than you are as well one-on-one, which wasn't the case of the HARD setting of six months ago with Plain Vanilla. I just can't make and keep enough Eldar alive to hold ground. It can't be done. Or I can't do it.

And once again, what's the good or the use of a HARDER or INSANE setting if the human player has no chance of winning one of these big maps at the HARD setting?

Edited by ThetaOrion, 15 April 2006 - 01:42 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

Oh, and thank you Excedrin and Larkin. I think your input, if accurate, has helped me to figure out what the problem truly is.

There's something wrong with the 1.75 AI Skirmish Mod Eldar now, just like there has been something wrong with the 1.41 Orks for the past six months. The 1.75 enemy AI has gotten better, while the human player has gotten nothing to compensate for the improved AI. It's finally starting to show up. The Eldar are the worst, but the other 1.75 factions are showing slight signs of it as well.

Reference:
http://forums.revora...showtopic=31095
Fourth Post
http://forums.revora...ndpost&p=277361

--

And, for point of clarification I ask:
When was the last time that any of you played as the human player on large 6 player or 8 player maps in 3vs3 or 4vs4 team play at the HARD setting of the AI Skirmish Mod? When was the last time that any of you played on Mountain Trails? When was the last time you played the AI Skirmish Mod at the HARD setting on a 6 player or 8 player map? I mean you playing and not some AI vs AI team play! When was the last time you played as a human player on 6P Soul Forge at the HARD setting with the AI Skirmish Mod? 6P Testing Grounds, 6P Mortalis? Have any of you played as the lone human player on the 3vs5 Castle Assault Map or 8P Black Fortress recently with the 1.75 AI Skirmish Mod? When was the last time that you, the human, played as the Eldar on a 6 player or 8 player map with the 1.75 AI Mod in team play?

I know Excedrin has played 1vs1 as the Eldar at the HARD setting of the AI Skirmish Mod, but have any of you played 4vs4 or 3vs3 as the Eldar recently?

How much do you guys really know and how well do you know what's really going on when it comes to playing the AI Skirmish Mod at the HARD setting 3vs3, or 4vs4, or 3vs5 as the lone human in the mix? You claim to be the experts, so I want to know how expert you really are when it comes to human play. Or do you do all of your big games and all of your testing and comparing AI vs AI with no human in the mix?

Edited by ThetaOrion, 15 April 2006 - 03:19 AM.

[Excedrin]

I posted two reps on Mountain Trail... I think it becomes less and less relevant as there's more AIs. But whatever, I'll play one vs AI on Burial Grounds and see how that goes.

4 Eldar vs Ork, Chaos, IG, SM
AI on Hard, with resource sharing, I floated lots of req as usual, towards the end I was wondering why I couldn't make an Avatar, then I remembered I needed to research MfW... I started near the IG, and since the AI can't bunker it was a slaughter. IG vs Eldar is already a bad matchup on most maps (in Eldar's favor in my opinion, but other people with more skill disagree with me on that).
http://dow.lerp.com/...0414.225735.rec

I'll do another one with 3 Eldar vs 3 SM on soul forge (that's a standard map, right?), that last one was kinda fun. Good way to practice macro. Ok, so... I don't like that map very much, the high and low areas are annoying. That said, me plus 2 AI Eldar won vs 3 AI SM with the AI difficulty on Insane. I think I made some critical mistakes, or I would have won sooner, but this one took something like an hour and 40 minutes. Anyway, here it is:
http://dow.lerp.com/...0415.040833.rec

Here's 3 Eldar vs 3 SM, Insane on Mortalis. It's a much more reasonable 10 minute length.
http://dow.lerp.com/...0415.143348.rec

Edited by Excedrin, 15 April 2006 - 09:35 PM.

[Excedrin]

Ok, here's Mortalis, 3 Eldar vs 3 Chaos, annihilate only, insane difficulty. 15 minutes instead of 10 minutes, I don't understand what's so interesting about killing buildings, but whatever.

http://dow.lerp.com/...0417.143950.rec