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Insane difficulty builds and the Control Panel


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#1 Malkor

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:00 AM

Okay, so I finally got around to trying the tech slider in the control panel.

The following is not something I'd never expect to be easily added, or added anytime soon.

I did mention at some point I'd like to fit together some insane-specific build orders for those of us seeking something on the wild, unstoppably "insane" side. The control panel could be used to activate these (obviously they will only function on the insane difficulty).

These builds are specificially designed for the AI to take advantage of large maps in FFA or 8-player situations. This means preparing a strong economy, teching very fast, and having ample defenses versus rushing. Currently, the tech slider does make them tech faster, but not nearly as fast as they could.

As an example, the current full tech IG goes infantry center -> commander -> guardsmen -> eventually upgrade to tier2. My build will go infantry center -> tier2 -> 2x mechanized command + power generators strewn through the upgrade process -> tier3.

Since it is probably most prudent to provide a detailed build order instead of a "I just want him to get shizzle fast", I've been looking at the scripts myself, and they seem somewhat like how I did things in Starcraft, except I have no idea what any of these numbers are doing. A quick glance at the documents doesn't really explain any of it in detail, either. So I'm wondering, in what kind of format would you like me to submit these builds in? It's probably inevitable I'm going to try to add them into a private build of my own in the late future, once I have a better grasp of what exactly I'm doing. Otherwise I can attempt to simply post a build in a format similar to what these scripts are formatted is and let you guys do the rest.

My god I made a thread. What have I unleashed upon this world?

Edited by Malkor, 17 November 2006 - 07:04 AM.


#2 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 12:31 PM

It's no problem to handle separate build programs for the various difficulty levels. The AIControl panel is not needed for that. We can load a different strategyinfo.ai file for each difficulty level if we want.

But I like clean and consistent concepts. If one race should get a special insane strategy, then all others should get one as well. And for 7 races x 4 build programs that's a lot of work. Even if you take the existing build programs as a basis. Are you really sure you want to do that?
I know, designing the build programs can be fun... for one race or maybe two, but for the rest it can get annoying very fast.

#3 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 03:18 PM

I thought we already had a section in the <faction>basestrategyinfo.ai file under LargeMap = which can be configured so Malkor can have his fast ecnomony going at the start? I'm also totally with Arkhan: we cannot support massive # of buildprograms per faction - a scripting nightmare to troubleshoot.

Further, how is it INSANE isn't INSANE enough? The AI gets a massive resource bonus well beyond a human player (equivalent to HARD SKILL) so he should be more than enough to pump out mass troops and tech quickly. I'm always fascinated how some people find INSANE easy. You must be a Professor of Starcraft Studies in a South Korean University. :lol:

Btw.. did a lot of testing last nite. Some amazing battles all around. No crashes at all. Alot of 3vs3.. Eldar are now pumping out skimmer vehicles (although WLs still are used a fair bit) and IG balance well between Hellhounds and Chimera so those problems solved.

Necrons are generally fine (Restored Monolith and Nightbringer preformed as expected).

I'd like to see more ATTACK-MOVE by the AI as I see alot of units just running right into the fray then attacking but obviously getting immediately toasted. However, it generally works well although I wonder what the ramifications are for having moving forces always use ATTACK-MOVE so they do not get slaughtered on the way to their destination? Obviously, a slower progression to the destination.
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#4 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 04:26 PM

However, it generally works well although I wonder what the ramifications are for having moving forces always use ATTACK-MOVE so they do not get slaughtered on the way to their destination?

Well that's quiet easy. Every unit which is in combat with any opponent will either kill its opponent or die trying. You can forget allied support since the forces refuse to move away from any opponents. The AI can't get its own forces back to its home base when it's attacked for the same problems. Forces won't gather anymore as soon as they are in combat with any enemies, etc.

As long as Relic doesn't offer a 'choose save path' command you'll NEVER EVER get a perfect solution for every situation. The only thing you reach by letting all forces move in attack mode is exchanging one problem for an even bigger one. Even if I play myself, I sometimes have to sacrifice troops simply to get the main forces back to a specific point.

#5 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 05:02 PM

Best leave it in then :thumbsupsmiley: What happens now is generally okay. Just sometimes I've seen them poor AI-controlled Orks go into combat by walking into the fray then firing instead of slowly progressing forward. (ie. Flash Gitz running staight into it then unleashing..). They of course get slaughtered but this scenario happens only sometimes. Other times, they open fire correctly from a distance.

Best to just keep the status quo. :thumbsupsmiley:
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#6 Malkor

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 05:40 PM

Why insane isn't insane enough -

I can still vehicle rush them to death 90% of the time.

Their economy is only good early on and late game.

They don't build to take advantage of the early bonus.

So on.

In short, they're still using builds intended for smaller maps and lower difficulties. These builds don't take advantage of the resource boost Insane gives, and nor are they truly catered to the kind of tier4 vs tier4 in 10 minutes matchup I'm looking for. They're good, yes, but I am one to go the extra mile.

As for writing the builds, 7x4, I can probably do that. My starcraft AI had 3x5-6... in SM alone I can definately make several openings (Early dreads, early speeders/grey knights, Land Raider rush with preds and termies...), the only races I think would be difficult to make 4 different builds on is Necrons and maybe Orks, but I could still probably give them something to play with. That's only if you really NEED 7x4, though. I think 7x2-3 (depending on the race) would be enough given their dynamic nature.

And yes, I did play SC since release on a somewhat professional level until about 5 years ago when I dedicated myself to modding. I started modding with AI, believe it or not, with the very same intentions that this thread is setting forth - to create the most versatile, most lethal opponent there can possibly be. I had no access to dancing, economy management, or whatnot, so I had to give them a resource boost and rely on macro tactics to grant them victory.

It was enough in many cases.

However, here I have an extremely unique opportunity. DoS has unequaled dance, micro, and adaptation code. With these features and a bit of a refined build ordering, I can turn the Insane difficulty into something truly terrifying to behold.

Edited by Malkor, 17 November 2006 - 05:42 PM.


#7 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 05:54 PM

Their economy is only good early on and late game.

They don't build to take advantage of the early bonus.

See.. it is this very aspect that totally confounds me. How can an AI *not* take advantage of the extra cash its getting by being on INSANE? Thats Ludicious!

Why would not the AI on INSANE skill being mass producing units when it has the cash to do it? As far as I've seen - it does kuzz it has no cash limitations. Give it alot of coin coming in and why need to rebuild the buildprograms? Buildprograms are based on army strengths so thus as it gets the cash, it builds the armies thus it techs.

Are you trying to just "push or force out armies" from the buildprogram at the start and at key points in the tier?
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#8 Malkor

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:01 PM

In a way, yes.

What I mean by not taking advantage is this.

I start off with 100 power. With that 100 power I can be well on my way to tier2 with IG quite fast.

Insane starts off with 200. Instead he wastes it on respawning the command squad over and over and the tactical center. He could instead use it to tech, build a few generators, and immediately get a pair of mechanized facilities. That's something I definately can't do due to money restraints.

The AI will build large armies to take advantage of the cash, but he doesn't set himself up to capitalize on it.

#9 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:14 PM

Hmmm.. I understand about the CommandSquad (since it has a high rating and effectiveness value in unitstats.ai) but how the hell does giving the AI wayy more money and faster resource rate allow it rebuild the Tactica building more often and NOT spawn more of everything? That scripting logic is illogical?

If I, say, give the AI 99999req and 99999pwr it will build an army quickly and then lots of buildings faster than a human could. Insane doesn't do this (at a slower scale)? The scripts would suggest otherwise.. The AI, when given more cash, should do things MUCH faster and just respawn the CommandSquad. He should respawning everything quickly as he would on HARD, for example.

Btw, if yer playing ONLY SM to attack our AI thats also a bias playtest.. SM is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too easy to play with. They are like the ultimate 'spoon-fed faction' in all of DoW. Even a gerbil could command them they do everything. Orks and Eldar are the hardest. Hell.. Tau are also the ultimate cheese as well. Just have a few FW squads and then Kroot Leap from behind to take out CC enemies and yet laughing. SM and Tau are, by far, the easiest to use due to ultimate SPAMALOT and super-easy to tech to Tier2.
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#10 Malkor

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:44 PM

I can vehicle rush with virtually any race but orks and necrons.

I'll try to explain what I mean. It seems you have a hard time understanding...

The IG is slowed down because the AI gets bogged trying to rebuild his command squad. This also costs him requisition and power. The power is necessary to tech. His resources from insane aren't to the point he can build 3 command squads and still get a huge boatload of mechanized command buildings before I do, and chances are, his command squad is simply dying to a few turrets or someone who has already gotten vehicles or assault squads or whathaveyou.

Therefore, I wouldn't have him get the command squad until tier3, which is when it's the most useful. That's less for him to worry about. At tier2 is when he gets his tactical command and starts branching outwards. Also, at the start of tier2, he immediately gets a hellhound and a chimera from his two mechanized buildings. If he uses my EXACT build order, he should have the power and requisition to do this as soon as the buildings are completed.

If you gave the AI literally infinite requisition and power... there's no telling what I could do with it. The major thing that slows the AI down in teching is trying to keep up with needless battles and rebuilding his commander units when they die. They are EXPENSIVE, resources he can't afford to spare that early on no matter his difficulty.

I actually consider the IG vehicle rush still more powerful than SM, too.

#11 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:53 PM

I start off with 100 power. With that 100 power I can be well on my way to tier2 with IG quite fast.

Insane starts off with 200. Instead he wastes it on respawning the command squad over and over and the tactical center. He could instead use it to tech, build a few generators, and immediately get a pair of mechanized facilities. That's something I definately can't do due to money restraints.

Our fast vehicle tech build programs already does that. If you want that, just force the choice of build program 4 in your insane games. As an insane alround build I'd definitely against it since the AI will loose map control and suffer an even bigger resource loss. Besides that, even mediocre players would rush it to death. The players who normally play on insane mode usually play very aggressive. A turtling tactic is suicide against such players.
If you are able to successfully fast tech against a rushing AI then it would be even easier for you to win against a fast teching AI.

I'd advice you to just open the buildbasestrategy.ai file in the ai/core/strategies folder and adjust the build program choice in line 27:

self.m_iCurrentBuildProgram = 1
	if (CpuManager.AISettings.bAlternativeStrategies) then
		self.m_iCurrentBuildProgram = self:ChooseBuildProgram()
	end

Just set both to 4 and you get the fast tech AI's you want.

Edit:
You can also use the attack delay slider to restrict any attacks, switch the harassing off and let them turtle a few minutes.

Edited by ArkhanTheBlack, 17 November 2006 - 06:57 PM.


#12 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:54 PM

Umm.. The IG come with ONE command squad and that isn't enough to nerf his AI preformance on the battlefield. Its just ONE unit out of the many he has.

Further, the SM totally outproduce, out preform, and out-tech pretty much all factions (except Tau now) due to their extremely verstile infantry squads, very fast easiness to Tech2, unreal Dread and now LS spam.. In fact, I ONLY use SM to test against OTHER third-party user factions that how brutal they are. I can literally just build my forces, sit there defending my space, get Dreads, then steamroll over the battlefield. SM can do it all whereas other factions need more patience and tactics.
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#13 Malkor

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:55 PM

Arkhan -> Okay, I'll give that a go after this video is finished rendering. :thumbsupsmiley:

Also thud, good microed sentinels will destroy virtually every SM vehicle besides predators and land raiders. Hellhounds will demoralize infantry something harsh and sentinels can also take out your generators and decap your shizzle when you least expect it. SM are pretty limited unless they get grey knights in addition to their usual stuff... but if you have 180 power just lying around chances are you will die.

And as for turtling AI, that's what the threat points are for.

Load up a game and check the price of the command squad. Now factor in you have about 200 power to play with until about a quarter way through the tech process of your command center. If you had to rebuild those dudes 3 times in a row...? You'd need more generators just to keep up.

But the AI doesn't seem to do that. If the command squad dies, they tend to pause to bring them back. They get a lot of generators, but they don't press for tier2 as soon as it becomes available. It seems little, but it does matter quite a bit in a neck-to-neck battle.

If the IG AI could garrison, I would gaurantee you they'd be unrushable. Unfortunately, as that is not possible, the threat point system would have to be relied on to get past it.

edit -

I can't comment about Tau, though. I think tech rushing for them would be pretty hard because they don't have turrets and their vehicle center is quite expensive. Fire warriors are pretty nasty little buggers, though.


And yes, I am pretty fanatical.

edit II -

Okay so, I'm pretty sure you guys would be more willing to accept exactly what I'm trying to do if I just went ahead and produced some tangible results. With that in mind, I have a fairly simple question. What exactly do the numbers in these commands do?

{ 1, 125, 0, 0, 1,	 "Building",	"guard_infantry" },

I also realized that it's not force building the command squad... okay, and I'm not going to touch unitstats because I'm pretty sure it would break everything else. I'm hoping one of those numbers is a priority, so I can give tech things a high priority.

Edited by Malkor, 17 November 2006 - 08:14 PM.


#14 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 08:37 PM

You answered your own question: once SM's GreyKnights arrive the SM are very much rocking. Sentinels are fragile (yes they have good range but damn do they go down fast to Dreads). HellHounds are taken care of by either Rocket Marine Squads or Hellfires. And besides.. who will tech to vehicles first? SM of course. Spam LSes and <bang> No more IG infantry.. Simply.. SM just tech faster and have overall generally better hardware.

Don't get me wrong.. I love IG alot.. but they cannot be tested against other upcoming user factions as well as SM. Survive SM and beat them and the mod can be tweaked to balance.

Regrettably, we cannot command the AI to garrison in transports/buildings - Relic never implemented it but its a minor consideration. I seriously doubt it would be effective at that point anyway with artillery and spammage. Its like Starcraft's garrisonable bunkers for the marines. They were okay but hardly able to handle higher tiered units. As is in DoW, IG bunkers are just preventing the inevitable anyway.

As for what this means:

{ 1, 125, 0, 0, 1, "Building", "guard_infantry" },

From left to right..

1 = The Tier you are in
125 = Requisition Used
0 = Power Used
0 = ArmyStrength Needed to activate (0 = immediately and other #s are based on how large your army is)
1 = Quantity (for Research its always 1, Addons can be 1, 50, or 100, buildings and units can be any # above 0).
Building = What the item is
guard_infantry = What the actual RGD name is used in the game
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#15 ThetaOrion

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 12:39 AM

Skipping the Command Squad and using the requistion resources and the power to go straight to tanks is a viable build order for most factions and would work best and show the best results in Free-For-All. But, fast teching to tanks won't work well for the Necrons.

And, in the Team Play that most of us play, the AI can and often does unite against the human player and goes united straight to his base. When that happens, a fast tech to tanks with no troops on the field often won't save you or serve you, and you will go down fast to a united attack from the AI, even if they take the time to fast tech to tanks or keep making the Command Squad over and over again.

I have experimented with the plain vanilla in team play, and often, if you try to fast tech to tanks, you find yourself looking at multiple enemy AI squads in your base, and soon your barracks and machine shops are gone, and soon you are gone. The only thing that keeps the combined AI enemy troops out of your base is a Necron Lord (or Commander) standing there, with possibly a turret as well. They just stay away if the Necron Lord is there holding the ground, or the enemy AI troops just follow your Necron Lord back to their own base if you decide to go the rush route. Or, if you have a Necron Lord or Commander and a turret there, then the united AI force will actually go united over to an AI ally's base that is fast teching to tanks and destroy them instead. This fast teching to tanks doesn't work well if the AI can unite and attack a single faction like they can do in TEAM PLAY.

In other words, in Team Play against the AI, you often need to build a Commander first thing if you want to have any hope of holding your base against a united enemy AI troop rush. The commander (and a turret) seems to be the only thing that deters them.

I believe that Arkhan is right, most of his build programs would work better for Team Play with and against the AI.

But, I believe that Malkor is right and that skipping the Command Squad and fast-teching to tanks would provide a better game in Free-For-All.

Each thing has its place, and merits, and weaknesses.

A set of Arkhan's build programs for Team Play, and a set of Malkor's build programs (once he has some built) for Free-For-All, might just be the most optimum setup. Because FFA plays out differently in real life than Team Play does.

#16 Malkor

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 02:45 AM

Heh, I just watched one of the IG build orders get overrun by dreadnaughts and stuff before he tried to tier2 at all. I'm going to start messing with this ASAP and see what I can accomplish.

Also, Arkhan, that change to the core thingy doesn't seem to have had any effect at all.

edit - Okay, Thudo helped me in getting it to work. My first test is EXTREMELY promising as the IG are now teching twice as fast as the current SM tech build is.


edit II -

The first of my builds is being worked on - the Hellslayer IG. This build is oriented for a strong tier2 presence and a decently early tier3 (although I wouldn't classify it as a full tier3 bullrush). It's strengths are the fast basilisks and hellhounds, following a build order very similar to what I use, except for an additional early guardsmen squad and a more robust infantry presence in tier2 to allow for aggressive control of the map.

I already have ideas for other builds in other races, such as the Necron's "March of the Dead" which is quite what it sounds, and an Eldar ghost rush (webway cloaking, warp spiders, vypers...). The ease of being able to alter these build orders is simply amazing.

So far my major changes are simply to the build order itself, but I also altered this code -

LargeMap =
		{
			{ "flag_capture" }, { "flag_capture" },
			{ "squad", "guard_squad_guardsmen" },
			{ "squad", "guard_squad_enginseer" },
			{ "squad", "guard_squad_guardsmen" },
			{ "post_builder" }, { "post_builder" },
			{ "building", "guard_infantry", true },
			{ "building", "guard_plasma_generator" }

in Guardstrategyinfo, to help their tech build progress without much interruption in the beginning. I'm not sure what the Flag capture things do but I kept the same number of flag capture commands for the guardsmen squads like the others to be sure.


update -

Thudo made the comment that they probably can't survive in 1v1 situations... so I tried it out of curiousity.

I actually got horribly owned trying to do my tried-and-true Speeder and Grey Knights rush, the bane of everything sane. By the time my first speeder came out, the IG had HWT's and several hellhounds waiting for me. It wasn't long before these were joined with sentinels, ogryn, and BASILISKS. My god they get basilisks fast. They are on the non-stop offensive and I got raped pretty horribly. Still need to make some modifications to it before I give it an "alpha" tag. Meanwhile I'm gonna start on a second race, probably Chaos.

Also flushed out a good Necron build in my head. I think I can take advantage of the BO's to force them to get obelisks and generators really fast for a very strong tier2 presence in comparison to their current slowness in comparison to orks/SM especially.

Edited by Malkor, 18 November 2006 - 07:18 PM.


#17 thudo

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:34 PM

okay now be careful here..

Are we making AI to almost always rape players within 2-3mins or are we making AI to be overall generally challenging and fun? Granted, this may work for pro-players who want the challenge of trying to stop an INSANE AI rush but please note: We could EASILY make rushing AI if we wanted to but why? Then we would totally alienate 90% of the users who will play our Advanced AI mod (novice to below average players).

I think this is good that we could come out with AI RUSHING TEMPLATES for the community which can be imported into our mod to give pro players a massive challenge. I like this idea.. Importable "Rushplates" if you will like Malkor is making and having alot of fun with by getting so very badly ass-handed by his own evil scripts!!! :thumbsdownsmiley:
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#18 Malkor

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:38 PM

Yeah, it's been great fun.

The AI's are generally designed to be challenging in all fronts. They tech rush for two reasons - to survive, and to kill ASAP. Those early hellhounds will save them from speeders, and they'll also destroy anyone who doesn't have any anti-vehicular stuff set up. Even the insane SM AI as it was stood no chance, since it was typically one dreadnaught versus an upwards of 20/20 supply IG vehicles and HWT's.

My necrons are going to be doing a duo tech rush and economy build early-on, and since warriors are free to build initially, they'll also have a fairly formidable tier1 presence. I'm gonna wait for the next beta to mess with the necrons, though.

Also, since these builds are insane-only, if you don't feel like playing against them, don't play insane difficulty. There's plenty of other good challenges in the existing builds in hard and harder, these builds are the extreme of the extreme and that is why they will be limited to the Insane difficulty. They are quite insane.

Edited by Malkor, 18 November 2006 - 07:43 PM.


#19 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 08:07 PM

The problem with your 1 vs 1 scenario is that you tried to counter a tech rush with another tech rush. But in an 1 vs 1 scenario, the AI usually has to deal with a rush in the first 3 - 4 minutes. I can remember some of Excedrins replays where he raped an insane AI by rushing it in the first minutes. Normally all his games ended this way in tier 1.

#20 Malkor

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 10:01 PM

Yeah, I figured that, too. I'm gonna be trying that as well.



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