32 replies to this topic

[Quitch]

So far as I can see, the second a Dreadnaut lands the AI is punching the "Assault cannon, now now now!!!" button... yet if things are as they were in the original Dawn of War, "upgrading" the Dreadnaut in this way halves its close-combat ability while replacing this with a rather wussy gun. Obviously handy when chasing infantry, but when the enemy is fielding Defilers and the like you don't want that wussy gun, but the AI doesn't seem to consider any of this.

Why the immediate upgrade?

Other than that, this mod really has come a long way since its turret happy beginnings. Of all the RTSs I play, I'd have to say this is the most challenging AI amongst them.

[thudo]

Old debate. Its set to upgrade that weapon when it sees infantry around. It upgrades to Lascannon conversely with enemy vehicles. Yes this can be disabled but we kept it in. Agree with you though.. Dread's Melee attack is quite powerful.. Blame Relic I guess but thats the choice for the user as well.

[Quitch]

Is the lascannon upgrade ever worth it? I've always found you're much better charging that vehicle. Maybe a Wraithlord can dance it, I haven't checked in a while...

Still, I'd have thought disabling it would be better more often than upgrading is, or only upgrading every other Dred or something.

[thudo]

We had noone on the beta team mention this and yet SM are the #1 most front-and-center DoW race of em all. Nevertheless.. the AI dread could be made NOT to upgrade any of his hardpoints. However, I find it tragic that such upgrades are useless. No upgrade in ANY RTS should ever be made totally useless.

[Quitch]

But AI doesn't determine which are and which aren't, game balance does. Ask the beta testers if they upgrade their dreads, or can find top end SM replays where the dreds get upgraded.

[thudo]

Our betateam never said anything about it otherwise we probably would have added it.

So essentially, the SM Dread SHOULD NOT upgrade anything then? Its best used with no upgrades built on it and just used for its amazing CC? Other units like the Hellfire Dread and support infantry would take care of the rest? If so, this can easily be changed.

[Quitch]

IMO, the assault cannon is useful only in situations where you will never get into CC, that is a dedicated infantry force which can dance you. Whether you would ever see such a thing in DC, well, who knows... frankly, if such a force exists you wouldn't build a Dreadnaut in the first place. I might upgrade if my CC dred isn't getting a look in, but then by that point you've probably got drop pods...

The lascannon, I just can't see the point. Buildings you CC, vehicles you CC or chase. Its damage is pitiful compared to what this thing can do in CC.

The Dreadnaut isn't the powerhouse it used to be, but unless they removed the "halve CC damage on upgrade", and I don't recall seeing this change, then the upgrades are what I would consider a right load of crap.

[thudo]

So keep the SM Dread inclusively the CC powerhouse thus never make it upgrade? I remember hearing this before -- perhaps its a balance thing as you compromise on its Melee by making it then Shooty. Can see why that was done thus reducing its Melee by half when it becomes Shooty.

I gather Pro Players just keep it Melee then?

[Quitch]

I think there are exceptions, but they are few and far between, and if you wanted guns on your Dred then the Hellfire is now an actual useful unit.

The AI does the same with the Wraithlord, upgrades its Star Burst cannon to a Bright Lance, even though often keeping it as is is best.

[thudo]

Hmm.. I find the WL is an exception.. Its an all-around excellent unit and its BrightLance is killer against vehicles/buildings. That weapon is meant to take on tanks while its CC (Vehicles/Buildings) + H.Flamer (against infantry) is a good offense.

[Quitch]

It doesn't fire the gun while in CC, and since CC is where it should be trying to get, and the unit it's trying to CC will be the one it's firing on, it can't be all round in the way that you envisage it being.

The Bright Lance was rendered near useless against infantry a long long time ago.

[thudo]

No no.. the brightlance = anti-vehicle/building. The rest, CC and H.flamer are for infantry. This makes the WL a good all-around killer. The Brightlance is what makes up for the ranged anti-vehicle/building. Thats why its built.

[Quitch]

But why do you want a unit targetting only one thing at a time to be an all-rounder? All it means is it's doing less damage to the infantry it's trying to kill than it otherwise could be. It can never be all round, it's focused on destroying one or the other, while being not bad at the other.

[thudo]

Because the WL's CC/Flamer are good when facing Infantry then when it turns its attention to vehicles/buildings its CC/Brightlance melt them down. If you don't have the Brightlance then the second part becomes retarded and the WL is only really good against infantry (which Falcons and Vypers should be used to eliminate as support).

[Zenoth]

Nice to see there is still life around here !

Well I had to jump into this conversation.

Personally, I always eventually upgrade my Dreads, and I myself have found at least a good reason (in my book) to do so, which is to switch the Dread attack to long-range when he needs to come back to my base for repairs. I know the A.I repairs vehicles but humans do that too ! Well at least I know I do, perhaps much less than the A.I would, but I always try to keep my vehicles top-shape, especially when Heroes is active, so they gain experience.

Here's an example I often encounter in my skirmishes when playing with SM's:

Let's presume the battle is turning in the enemy's favor, at least temporarily, and that the bulk of their forces are heading to my base and that I expect it to happen. Now let's say I already had Dreads battling it out near my base to keep the enemy forces at bay, they are mostly, if not all in melee, while I train and immediately send newly arrived troops on the field to help them.

Well, I tend to think that if I am not an idiot and actually try to do some strategic maneuvers that will mean to bring back most, if not all my Dreads back to base for repair (usually not "total" repairs but at least enough repairing to keep them away from death and destruction). Well that's exactly where and when their upgrades come into play. When I find a relatively safe spot in my base I set the Dread to hold position stance, so he doesn't move and keeps getting repaired. If, for example, he'd have no upgrades at all he would be vulnerable and couldn't attack incoming forces from a distance. And the complete opposite would be true if he has an upgrade ready.

So, while he holds his position, I switch his attack mode to "firing", so that he uses one of its two upgrades from a distance to help the infantry or other vehicles (be it those of your allies or just a portion of your Dreads) while they are themselves trying to melee the incoming enemies away from getting inside the base and raping everything apart. And then, if it works (it usually does, but against overwhelming waves of enemies there's not much an upgrade or non-upgrade Dread can do, even more than one) then there is at least one result: you did some damage rather than not doing any, from a distance. So when the repairs are done you just let him loose upon the enemy on assault mode and he's going to pursue those Stromboyz trying to leg it.

Their upgrades definitely have their use, but I believe that it becomes useful only in a defensive stance and not only that but also if he's not alone (for example staying away himself because he's damaged, but still be at a distance, firing). In other words an upgraded Dread can also play the role of a Hellfire Dread in extreme conditions. Well that's how I see it and that's how I often do my upgrades. I try not to upgrade immediately, but I always upgrade when I think there's too much enemy infantry and/or vehicles around for my taste, so that if I ever want to retreat and regroup, or even if I want to try and dance around a group of enemy I will have that gun ready and firing, rather than just having a 100% vulnerable Dread not being able to do any damage if he turns back and pursues because he'd only be able to do melee attacks.

That's how I see this.

I say don't remove the ability for the A.I to upgrade the Dreads, please.

Perhaps regulate them more, create newer conditions for which the A.I can recognize the actual strategic need to upgrade, but certainly don't completely remove them. I would never agree when someone says the Dread upgrades are "completely" useless. They definitely have their use under my command. Not often, granted, but they do. But if you guys really do want to remove that ability forever, then I would highly recommend to create some sort of in-game option to let us chose between having the A.I upgrade their Dreads or not upgrade them, but don't force the players around using their upgrades to lose that strategic advantage. Accommodating everyone on the boat is easy, let them chose what they prefer, is my suggestion.

Edited by Zenoth, 20 September 2007 - 05:50 PM.

[thudo]

Well for our 2.50 AI mod I would keep the option for the AI to go with the Dread upgrades. For other balance mods I would experiment with disallowing it to gauge player opinions on the matter. Sofar, in the Annihilation mod, disallowing the AI to upgrade SM Dreads yields no major game breaking strat. SM is pretty balanced in Tier2 whether Dreads are CC monsters or not and I have never seen the AI fall because their Dreads are not CC-based. There are more factors involved.

[Quitch]

Dreds don't withdraw, they're too slow. If a Dred is in enough trouble to drop to ranged, it's a dead Dred, not to mention its best chance to survive is to CC whatever is shooting it, since its troubles will never be in CC.

[Quitch]

Can you at least consider delaying upgrades? Right now the dred pops out, sees something and initiates an upgrade. You're left with a dred which does half the CC damage of another dred, doesn't make up for that with firepower, and also does less shooty damage than a Hellfire. I personally don't see the point of the upgrade, it halves the CC, it does less damage than a Hellfire, and if you're dealing with a mobile foe you'd have gone for Landspeeders.

[thudo]

Yes we could specify the SM Dread to delay its upgrade -- there is a way like the same approach we can prevent a certain squad from reinforcing itself until, say, a later tier.

[dreddnott]

You should take its ability to upgrade out entirely. The way the AI controls the Dreadnought, it *never* makes up for the extra close-combat damage with the Assault Cannon or the TL Lascannon.

Quitch is right, by the time the AI decides to retreat a walker it's usually dead before it finishes turning around.

Right now SM mirror is LOL against your AI, partly because my Dreadnoughts do twice as much damage as his. Even in the late game upgrades would be pointless, because you're dropping your Dreadnoughts directly into close combat with the Orbital Relay.

As an aside, the Wraithlord and Tomb Spyder upgrades are even *more* worthless because they have the super-low Fire on the Move accuracy, and guess what? CC walkers are always on the move! Dreadnought at least gets high accuracy on the move for its upgrades.