80 replies to this topic

[Casen]

Well wouldn't that plan deceive anyone?

And does that make them in the right? No.

To be frank I don't even think it was a plan, I just think their priorities changed.

[partyzanPaulZy]

Russia was, has been, is agressivly nationalistic, many of them were "ubermensch" all the time, soviet socialism was nationalistic, too, they were alpha all the time.
But what did Saaskasvilli isn't nothing else than agression... Russia deserves to keep her forces around borders of these Russia-friendly republics because of massacre caused by sudden Georgian attack (1500 South Osetian civilians died during Georgian bombardment, overwhelming most of refugees ran to Russia, Russia killed much less civilians in Georgia). Action produce reaction... Now it has ended, now it's diplomatic phase.

BTW, situation in today western world is similar to situation in last centuries of the Roman Empire - many slaves/ many today poor workers concentrated mostly in China, India, etc. ... USA, Western Europe - central parts of empire, East Europe, richer parts of Latin America - less important provinces, China, India, South-East Asia - German areas, Persia, etc. ; third world nations - barbarians. Population of the North (economical - political) is getting lower when I don't count immigrants - low birth-rate in ending Roman Empire. China is awaking(Huns, Germanic and Slavic tribes), Russia is more and more self-confident (Byzanc), moslim and Sahel nations (Huns, Germanic and Slavic tribes).
Don't wonder nationalism is rising when socialistic world peace ideal failed (from the first invasion of USSR) and world heagemon USA offer us (world) policy of power.

Edited by partyzanPaulZy, 22 August 2008 - 09:08 PM.

[Puppeteer]

Not a very good comparison really... seeing as neither Western Europe nor the USA are using Asia countries to provide slaves; it's really the TNCs and other major corporations. The Slaves aren't working against their will, they want to work but sadly their is no big pay because the SweatShop's owners wish to make a big profit by having the lowest expenditure. Eastern Europe really aren't minor provinces either, the only real connection between Western and Eastern Europe is the flood of immigrants. China & India aren't 3rd nations, I think they're classified as inbetween MEDCs and LEDCs; it's (argh can't remember name). Population of the North is not getting lower, it's increasing; the Birth Rate may be lower than LEDCs but the Infant Mortality Rate is far smaller with the great improvements in medical care. The population is ageing too with the medical improvements so the population is lasting longing and waxing. China awoke some decades again from its Industrial Slump and is going through its Industirial Revolution. Russia has always been asserting its authority, and in any case its really Putin who's asserting an aggressive foreign policy. Not sure who Byzanc is, you mean Byzantine? That's a part of Roman.
So really no apt comparison there...

Edited by Puppeteer, 22 August 2008 - 09:22 PM.

[duke_Qa]

On the topic of lost lives in the Georgia conflict. the numbers of wounded in hospitals in South-Ossettia is around 250 from what we know right now. Considering that the number of wounded usually are 2-4x times taller than the numbers of killed in any conflict, this seems to imply that the initial attacks from Georgia only killed 50-100 people.

Second, Russia has a vacum-tight lid on the press in the areas it controls. No international press has been able to count bodies or anything else in South-Ossetia as of yet, and that makes me automatically doubtful of whats going on over there. I have no doubt that the city the Georgians attacked got a good pummeling, but it seems that most civilians at that time were somewhat out of the hot-zones. Right now i don't see any reason to believe that more South-Ossettians have been killed than georgians.

The Russians will play the victim card the same way the Israelis play theirs; until its nothing but a parody of itself. Hopefully it won't come to that and this situation will be nothing but water under the bridge in a few years.

Edited by duke_Qa, 22 August 2008 - 10:38 PM.

[Spectre]

Using one enemy to fight off another, gain they're trust and then attack them later? Sounds like a good plan to me. Very subtle.

Agreed, making conclusions with face value is a one way ticket to damnation.

Edited by General Jenkins, 23 August 2008 - 06:01 AM.

[Paladin58]

Has anyone pondered if this little war was all a ruse by the South Ossetians to try and get absorbed by Russia, by impersonating Georgian troops? Admittedly, it would seem to have backfired for them if that were the case, but it is all a possibility, right?

[Casen]

Using one enemy to fight off another, gain they're trust and then attack them later? Sounds like a good plan to me. Very subtle.

Agreed, making conclusions with face value is a one way ticket to damnation.

Don't buy it. You know deep down that's not the fact, you just can't think of any other way to win the argument, so you're saying we were fools. We were never enemies of them back then so we had no reason to suspect they'd turn on us. There was no plan and you know it.

But if it's true, still makes them the bad guys, not us. So stop bringing up that stupid point. You liberals are always trying to find ways to defend Muslims because it's group mentality. At this point it's growing to become absurd.

[Spectre]

Using one enemy to fight off another, gain they're trust and then attack them later? Sounds like a good plan to me. Very subtle.

Agreed, making conclusions with face value is a one way ticket to damnation.

Don't buy it. You know deep down that's not the fact, you just can't think of any other way to win the argument, so you're saying we were fools. We were never enemies of them back then so we had no reason to suspect they'd turn on us. There was no plan and you know it.

But if it's true, still makes them the bad guys, not us. So stop bringing up that stupid point. You liberals are always trying to find ways to defend Muslims because it's group mentality. At this point it's growing to become absurd.

Every man has the right to live as much as you do, you're still looking at it with face value, trying not to look at it further, blinding yourself when you see it fit, only seeing what you want to see.

Russia is no common enemy, we only were opposed to them via politics, if they were to become our "common enemy", then we would of battled them sometime or later down the line, we helped them because we saw it fit, to only be turned on, it was a plan, they suckered us into giving them the firepower they needed to take full control of the country, which I see has gone terribly wrong. Muslims aren't the problem, it is the little minority of terrorists, and they're hated by most Muslims, saying that all Muslims are the enemy and theymust be eradicated is ignorant and foolish.

Edited by General Jenkins, 23 August 2008 - 05:39 PM.

[Puppeteer]

You liberals are always trying to find ways to defend Muslims because it's group mentality.

2 stereotypting in one sentence, I hope you're proud

[Hostile]

You liberals are always trying to find ways to defend Muslims because it's group mentality.

2 stereotypting in one sentence, I hope you're proud

Actually I only see 1 stereotype, that is liberals standing up for idiot ideologies. Muslims are a religion. You can insert any group in that sentence.

Russia is doing what is does best. Slowly expand its territory by intimidation of it's much smaller neighbors. Besides calling them a bully, there is nothing anyone is gonna do about it. Russia gained territory and end of sentence.

Instead of President Putin we have PM Putin. No difference. I suppose I feel about the Russians the way alot of the world feels about the US. I love the people but not sure about the government.

IMO it's hard to trust the russian government because they appear to me and many others that they don't have the best of democratic intentions in mind.

[Verrückt]

It's official, Russia's president doesnt care if there is a second cold war. Waiting for fail to happen.

[OmegaBolt]

Hes just saying that he isnt going to back down to us and the yanks, even if we/they threaten. Which is fair enough, why should he?

Hes saying what everones been thinking - a big ol' war. If they America wants to fight, im glad someones there to battle them and I hope they (Russians) win too.

[Dexter]

[Hostile]

Hes just saying that he isnt going to back down to us and the yanks, even if we/they threaten. Which is fair enough, why should he?

Hes saying what everones been thinking - a big ol' war. If they America wants to fight, im glad someones there to battle them and I hope they (Russians) win too.

You know what, maybe you could like... move to Russia and become a Russian citizen comrade. Because we all know how great it is to live in Russia.

[Verrückt]

Hes just saying that he isnt going to back down to us and the yanks, even if we/they threaten. Which is fair enough, why should he?

Hes saying what everones been thinking - a big ol' war. If they America wants to fight, im glad someones there to battle them and I hope they (Russians) win too.

You know what, maybe you could like... move to Russia and become a Russian citizen comrade. Because we all know how great it is to live in Russia.

Where fallout is not rpg.

[Dexter]

I wonder how "you all" know that.


Unfortunately there is no swearing word in English to describe a man who talks about things he doesn't know a **** about (or at least i don't know it). Otherwise i would surely use it in this reply.

[duke_Qa]

Dexter: The youtube link was somewhat one-sided and pretty much looks at western culture as completely hopeless and historyless. It doesn't mention a better alternative (as far as I've seen), but it seems to support a anti-liberal attitude with the focus on "forgetting your country's past and culture", "no longer producing as much children and creating good families". Basic nationalism imo.

All of these arguments can be interpreted as a "look back in history and see how well we had it before these liberal westerners came with their influences and tried to eat up our culture". Which makes you vulnerable to the next mental attack saying something like "we should go back to the ways of old, and forget any western idea, be they good or bad(forget freedom of speech, forget equal rights, forget whatever drags us behind)." Culture is not forgotten when you are released from the strict codes of ancient culture, it grows in new directions and creates offspring of the old that are much more energetic, fascinating and perhaps less dangerous.

The western world has done alot of atrocities, but the average man's quality of life has to count for more than your nations power. Any other major power is equally guilty of atrocities in the past as the west. Gulags, incarceration/assassinations of dissenters and political opponents, is something we see very rarely in the western world these days.


Basically: western world are today more focused on keeping their peoples quality of life up, and this handicaps them in any powerplay. A totalitarian/nationalistic/fascistic nation has alot more freedom as a country to grow, but it grows on the blood of its own citizens and neighboring nations. Naturally, atrocities are still done for our quality of life.

Humans abuse those weaker than themselves all the time. They steal their resources and sell them to someone with more money. This happens absolutely everywhere and the western world can hardly be blamed for that. How long has there been ethnic russians in Georgia(south-Ossetia and Abkazia) and Crimea?(stalin got rid of the original inhabitants(crimea-tatars) in the may 1944)? probably as long as there has been Israelis on Palestine land. its as old as dirt: kill thy neighbor and take his land. its more unacceptable these days and we should be glad for that.

Oh, and while cowboys where killing off indians and whatnot in the 1700-1800s, what were exactly the Russians doing at that time? Following some tzar around minding their own business? Looks to me that they were fighting with Napoleon over alot of land, going to war with the japanese, still following serfdom and being slow into industrialism. pretty close to what everyone else was doing at the time.



anyway, enough for now this reply is getting long. nothing in this world is flawless and we shouldnt buy into what people are telling us if theres a price to be paid by following such creed.

[Dexter]

Of course it is one-sided, i didn't say it's not.

It doesn't mention a better alternative

I don't think it should. For it doesn't oppose west, or capitalism, it merely points at the united states as a cause of many troubles this world has at the time. Of course it is biased, of course it is aggressive, i don't even think this subject deserves to be discussed. But i think it was made to be felt this way. The most important message i see in this video is that regardless of US true intentions, regardless of existence or inexistence of the "evil master plan" we have the same result. Intentions depicted here may be a lie, but most events shown are real.

Basic nationalism imo.

For a matter of fact i am a nationalist. Nationalism, patriotism, this is all the same in the end. In this subject i make a sharp distinction between nationalism and nazism. In no way i experience any xenophobia, but is it really bad to preserve your traditions, to remember culture of your ancestors? I don't think so, and if there is something wrong with me - let it be. I am quite comfortable the way i am. But even though, it's not about restraining yourself within limits of existing culture. Whoever created this just referred to the cultural crisis of the modern average citizen, he's not alone here, check your bookstore. The way i see it of course. As for the producing of children and creating good families - what is wrong with that? Really, the modern advertised "reckless" lifestyle will bring no good to anyone, including US itself.

forget freedom of speech, forget equal rights, forget whatever drags us behind

Wait, wait, wait. Isn't this video an expression of the freedom of speech? What about equal rights, was there something about it? By the looks of it you saw this video as something hostile from the beginning. I don't see any calls to switch back to whatever there was (furthermore much was wrong), merely a spark to think about what's happening. Maybe i saw this from the geopolitical perspective rather than social, maybe that's because it didn't say anything new to me - merely summarized my feelings (once again, it's about politics).

What one shouldn't forget is that western world is about 20-30% of the world's population. And it's quality of life is achieved largely thanks to the way other world is forced to live. Just look at what's happening with oil. If one doesn't provide the alternative it doesn't mean one shouldn't think of it.

How long has there been ethnic russians in Georgia(south-Ossetia)

Actually there are none at the present. It's just ossetines considered "Russian" because of their historical allegiance, they were there since before the empire, they were always at the state of conflict with georgians.
As for the "cowboy" argument - isn't it stupid to blame someone for what his ancestors did? The point is not in the fact that americans did it before, but that the same pattern continues. Russia's intentions in the region were always aiming at achieving peace, that would be ridiculous to think there could be any interest in american pipeline, no matter what guys from white house say.

I hope i didn't sound too defensive, though if i did, i'm afraid it was sort of in vain. We thought of different things - in no way i sympathize authoritarian doctrines, the bar in my signature is just a joke, no price should be paid, amen.

Edited by Dexter, 17 October 2008 - 06:18 PM.

[duke_Qa]

Yeah I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just saying whats on my mind when i see that link and adding my own perspective to it.

I don't think it should. For it doesn't oppose west, or capitalism, it merely points at the united states as a cause of many troubles this world has at the time. Of course it is biased, of course it is aggressive, i don't even think this subject deserves to be discussed. But i think it was made to be felt this way. The most important message i see in this video is that regardless of US true intentions, regardless of existence or inexistence of the "evil master plan" we have the same result. Intentions depicted here may be a lie, but most events shown are real.

its the way of empires, they rise and fall, they do great things and they to horrible things. And compared to earlier empires, I have to say the western world is one of the most open and information-filled "empires" in the history of mankind.

Its obvious that anything insignificant for a hundred years ago would cause global uproar these days(Armenian ethnic cleansing a hundred years back? pretty much up with the nazis on seriousness, but it happened so long ago in a pretty primitive area so its not that well-known. Chinese communists wiping out teachers and dissenters in the hundreds of thousands? done with the help of heavy sensorship and taboo of speaking against the state). If we lived in a simpler age with less liberties and access to information, the blood would flow much more freely and nobody would know nor care about it.

For a matter of fact i am a nationalist. Nationalism, patriotism, this is all the same in the end. In this subject i make a sharp distinction between nationalism and nazism. In no way i experience any xenophobia, but is it really bad to preserve your traditions, to remember culture of your ancestors? I don't think so, and if there is something wrong with me - let it be. I am quite comfortable the way i am. But even though, it's not about restraining yourself within limits of existing culture. Whoever created this just referred to the cultural crisis of the modern average citizen, he's not alone here, check your bookstore. The way i see it of course. As for the producing of children and creating good families - what is wrong with that? Really, the modern advertised "reckless" lifestyle will bring no good to anyone, including US itself.

Well I can find nationalistic traits in myself if i looked. If someone invaded my country i would be pissed as hell and do my best to make their days as hard as possible. If some politicians tried to get us into EU again i would probably do my best to avoid getting dragged into that bureaucracy. I would probably keep speaking my own language until I die, but i have to say that I'm alot better with english imo (it probably sucks for native-speakers though, thats the fun part). i wouldn't define myself as a nationalist just because I think my country deserves to be a country and we got a culture to take care of. To be a nationalist means often that you don't think twice about what you are told by your leaders and think of yourself as superior to any other nation.

Culture is something you should be allowed to select on your own, and I feel that the western world really has a good routine on that. People have different interests and keep to themselves without bothering eachother. In more aggressive cultures like conservative islam, you are fucked if you go against the flow.

"Families" are troublesome these days with capitalism and careers. I've wanted to write a short novel or something on a future world where children are sent away from birth to be kept and trained by professionals so that their parents can spend their time on other things like work or themselves. Have a look at the different pros and cons of such a upbringing, see if its something that is likely to happen or not. ultimately though, with equal rights and the new culture of being a productive person in society, its often not as easy as before to make a good family. people move around where the jobs are, leaving the old behind.

Wait, wait, wait. Isn't this video an expression of the freedom of speech? What about equal rights, was there something about it? By the looks of it you saw this video as something hostile from the beginning. I don't see any calls to switch back to whatever there was (furthermore much was wrong), merely a spark to think about what's happening. Maybe i saw this from the geopolitical perspective rather than social, maybe that's because it didn't say anything new to me - merely summarized my feelings (once again, it's about politics).

What one shouldn't forget is that western world is about 20-30% of the world's population. And it's quality of life is achieved largely thanks to the way other world is forced to live. Just look at what's happening with oil. If one doesn't provide the alternative it doesn't mean one shouldn't think of it.

It is, but with great power comes great responsibility. If you make something just to distract people from reality, you are not really helping freedom of speech but covering it with noise. They are free to create such videos, and I'm glad that we are able to see and argue about such films without any risk on being persecuted for doing so. Doesn't mean I agree with it or feel that it might be very helpful on its own.

It is oriented negatively and i probably had a negative experience of it because I know that the picture is alot more advanced than what we see in it. and naturally my geopolitical perspective is different than that of your average Russian. I just hope that Russia can get wherever it wants to go without going to war with more of its neighbors, or trying to get old soviet republics to come join them again.

Yeah, alot of the world lags behind while we are on top, but many of these are caused by active ignorance and lack of motivation to learn a more effective way of doing things. if Africa had some western sense of creating businesses and proper infrastructure and whatnot, it would have been a superpower ages ago. But they would rather go around killing each other with machetes, living off farms with barely enough output to keep one family alive on land that could feed hundreds.

Also know that alot of the western world produce many of the products that the rest of the world uses. Knowledge and technology is helpful. The black-earth belt down in Southern parts of Russia is a world-sized breadbasket waiting to be sown, but the competence and technology is lagging behind(if you want to create a good source of income in Russia these days, starting a farming business with 400-1000 farmers under you isn't a bad way to go, as long as you have the tech and the motivation among your workers to do the job that is needed). Same with Zimbabwean white farmers losing their lands to black farmers: farms goes to hell because black farmers has no knowledge or interest in making more food than what they need for themselves.

Actually there are none at the present. It's just ossetines considered "Russian" because of their historical allegiance, they were there since before the empire, they were always at the state of conflict with georgians.
As for the "cowboy" argument - isn't it stupid to blame someone for what his ancestors did? The point is not in the fact that americans did it before, but that the same pattern continues. Russia's intentions in the region were always aiming at achieving peace, that would be ridiculous to think there could be any interest in american pipeline, no matter what guys from white house say.

South-Ossetia was not a good example, but its a part of the power-play that Russia is playing these days(even though they might be looking for peace, alot of things have been done that haven't been very constructive. I would have gone for a international peacekeeping force before Russian peacekeepers. In a situation where the Russians are pretty obviously biased and a major threat to one of the parties involved, it should have been obvious that it would cause trouble). I would however say that Crimea was a better one.
But as you say, its stupid to blame 'you' for what 'your' ancestors have done. We are all children of murderers, doesn't mean we have to become murderers. You say that americans follow the same pattern that they did in the past, i say that Russians are following same pattern as they did in the past. There are plenty of nuances around on both sides, but I don't see anyone planning to stop such games anytime soon.


bleh long post, got to get to bed now.

[Phil]

Frankly, that video was was complete BS. Not sure what exactly the intentions of the maker were, but it wasn't even an intelligent provocation.

I'm not sure we can actually say that the "modern reckless lifestyle" and the accompanying identity/value crisis is worse than the traditional way of life. I know that many people share this opinion, but IMO only time will tell. It might just as well be the unjustified whiny reaction of conservatives.

Personally, I'm not a fan of any kind of nationalistic behaviour, however there is a difference between decent patriotism (such as believing your nation deserves to be one and considered equal to others etc.) and believing in the superiority of your nation - possibly even leading to the belief in superiority of your race.

Wait, wait, wait. Isn't this video an expression of the freedom of speech? What about equal rights, was there something about it? By the looks of it you saw this video as something hostile from the beginning. I don't see any calls to switch back to whatever there was (furthermore much was wrong), merely a spark to think about what's happening. Maybe i saw this from the geopolitical perspective rather than social, maybe that's because it didn't say anything new to me - merely summarized my feelings (once again, it's about politics).

I don't think anyone here has a problem with that video being legal, it's just that it was pretty low-quality from the point of view of content.

Yeah, alot of the world lags behind while we are on top, but many of these are caused by active ignorance and lack of motivation to learn a more effective way of doing things. if Africa had some western sense of creating businesses and proper infrastructure and whatnot, it would have been a superpower ages ago. But they would rather go around killing each other with machetes, living off farms with barely enough output to keep one family alive on land that could feed hundreds.

I sure hope you mean more than a few hundred years when you say "ages ago", because Africa obviously had little chance to stabilise and prosper after 1500 (very roughly). It may be true that the tribal mentality doesn't help industrialisation, but centuries of European colonialism and imperialism certainly didn't give them much of a chance either. Either way, be careful of what you blame on lacking western mentality when same western mentality did its best to suppress others and prevent them from developing.