68 replies to this topic

[Ghostrider]

I think that's more of a way of saying that Tatooine couldn't afford to purchase and maintain an Imperial-class Star Destroyer or two for its defense fleet.

Just to confirm, Tropical Bob is right - these costs are nothing to do with 'game-play' It's simply a way for PR and I to assess the available resources of a planet/system and make sure that we get the system's defense fleet right. I/we assume that planets have to buy, steal or build their fleets. Think of this as 'behind the scenes balancing'. With over 100 planets in play we had to come up with a basic set of guidelines to populate them. Now the fleets approximately match these factors (with some interesting exceptions of course).

In fact, we have ended up with a fairly complex formula to determine the 'Planet Score' that takes into account the base financial value of a planet, land and space slots, tech level, planetary population, terrain, galactic location etc. Defense fleets are then roughly populated to the planet score, which in our system ranges from zero (one of the outer-rim / wild-space locations) to a whopping 34 for Coruscant. This score reflects a system's ability to contribute to the galactic economy and therefore it's purchasing/building/trading power.

It is not a linear scale, so there will be a huge difference in fleet strengths. My guess (Rebel/Imperial starting forces won't be done until I complete all the pirate planets) is that while some planets are ready to be taken at the GFFA outset with your humble starting forces, some worlds will still be a serious challenge in mid- or even late game.

This way you as the player get a galaxy that makes sense with itself. Poor planets with few resources don't get as big fleets as the rich industrialised ones. Without the basic underlying system it all becomes whymsical and fundamentally inaccurate.

As to adding an additional resource, personally I think it is probable not technically possible and if you do, then you open the door for all other resources to need a place, like fuel, munitions etc. Balancing would be horrendous and I would not like to guess where you got the information from. Besides, all resources eventually boil down to one common factor anyway - money.

Note - that's my opinion but you'll have to wait for PR's definitive answer on resources.

Edited by Ghostrider, 28 October 2008 - 05:17 PM.

[Tropical Bob]

I totally agree on the resources point.

I also never really found games with more than two resources fun. Gathering resources then becomes the focus of the game, and it gets tedious doing so.

[keraunos]

What about rebuilding stuff? While player can rebuild ships at will, indigenous factions will be at serious disadvantage. Would it be too difficult to create a script that maintains fleet at certain level? Probably a lot of work, but could add significantly to gameplay, too

[anakinskysolo]

What about the other GC campaigns? Will they be modified too?

[Valter]

This has taken a huge amount of work, and we now have a self-consistent galaxy to work with that accurately reflects the planet’s financial, military, commercial and demographic position in the galaxy. For example, living on a barren ice world with poor resources is going to have a significantly different defence force to say, a rich, urban world near a major trade route. This means that you need to evaluate a planet carefully before you invade. Where possible, we have tried to tangibly reflect these factors in the fleet population. One of the spin-offs of this work has been a re-evaluation of the galactic economy and I am sure you will learn more about this in due course.

This is great news, the biggest problem I had (of the few that can be found) with the Phoenix Rising campaigns is the monotony of capturing pirate-controlled planets. There is little reason to bypass the "auto-resolve" button because of the repitition of these particular space battles. But now the concept of a galaxy with variety and pseudo-factionalism will definately keep the campaign fresh and interesting.

Keep up the good work Ghostrider, I can't wait to see the finished mod!

[Kitkun]

I feel that I have been teased.

[Ghostrider]

What about the other GC campaigns? Will they be modified too?

If i get time before the release. Core worlds and Outer rim campaigns will be taken straight from GFFA.

Basically all my effort is going into getting GFFA space right.
The good news is you will get unique historical texts for all planets as well.
I am writing all of them as a I populate - so pay attention to every word!

Then I do a crude land population which will be fully revamped with the impending land changes for V1.2 - not that I know what those are yet in any case.

Once GFFA space and Land are done, then I will see if Thrawn and Shadow Hand need tweaking. I may have to bump to V1.2
Unlike PR, I have to do this outside my job!, so please be patient.

PS. My hatred of the monotony of capturing identical planets got me started on the GFFA campaign in the summer. I pestered PR incessantly with tweaks and ideas and got a first draft out. Then he invited me to join the team and I scrapped all my summer work and started over with this version.

The effort PR has put into taking a new theme and expanding it is just incredible.
You will now face over 100 unique ships, space stations and fighter craft in this campaign and I thought I was a details man. Wow you just wait!

Edited by Ghostrider, 29 October 2008 - 11:10 AM.

[Kaleb Graff]

What about the other GC campaigns? Will they be modified too?

If i get time before the release. Core worlds and Outer rim campaigns will be taken straight from GFFA.

Basically all my effort is going into getting GFFA space right.
The good news is you will get unique historical texts for all planets as well.
I am writing all of them as a I populate - so pay attention to every word!

Then I do a crude land population which will be fully revamped with the impending land changes for V1.2 - not that I know what those are yet in any case.

Once GFFA space and Land are done, then I will see if Thrawn and Shadow Hand need tweaking. I may have to bump to V1.2
Unlike PR, I have to do this outside my job!, so please be patient.

PS. My hatred of the monotony of capturing identical planets got me started on the GFFA campaign in the summer. I pestered PR incessantly with tweaks and ideas and got a first draft out. Then he invited me to join the team and I scrapped all my summer work and started over with this version.

The effort PR has put into taking a new theme and expanding it is just incredible.
You will now face over 100 unique ships, space stations and fighter craft in this campaign and I thought I was a details man. Wow you just wait!

When do we get it!?

[Karhedron]

This sounds extremly interesting.
Thanks for your efforts in advance.

Since I have a lot of stuff going on in RL (yes that IS that thing with the amazing graphics but stressful "quests" )
I can't really offer any help. I doubt that my technical skills would be of any help

Just one thing that always crossed my mind as a writer, that is focused on developing a storyline full of suspense for his readers....would it be technically possible to add some kind of conversation at the start of a battle?
Depending on the side you are playing for. Something like a short cutscene.

Example : Planet is the base of a renegade Moff. You attack it with your fleet as an Empire player.

Message : This is (enter name here) hailing the fleet entering the system. Explain the reason for your arrival in this sector.
Answer : Surrender your forces. This planet is now under direct control of the Emperor.
Message : I have always served the Emperor well. I contest the legitimicy of your presence here.
Answer : I have been given full authorization. You have been warned. Stand down or face the consequences. Lieutenant..cut the transmission.

Something like that..

[Tropical Bob]

Just one thing that always crossed my mind as a writer, that is focused on developing a storyline full of suspense for his readers....would it be technically possible to add some kind of conversation at the start of a battle?
Depending on the side you are playing for. Something like a short cutscene.

Example : Planet is the base of a renegade Moff. You attack it with your fleet as an Empire player.

Message : This is (enter name here) hailing the fleet entering the system. Explain the reason for your arrival in this sector.
Answer : Surrender your forces. This planet is now under direct control of the Emperor.
Message : I have always served the Emperor well. I contest the legitimicy of your presence here.
Answer : I have been given full authorization. You have been warned. Stand down or face the consequences. Lieutenant..cut the transmission.

Something like that..

It might be possible, since there's always that annoying stormtrooper/rebel guy talking about removing space forces to ground forces can move in or something stupid and annoying like that. I suppose you'd be able to replace that with something else. I just don't know if you'd be able to randomize or customize it per planet.

[Ghostrider]

It might be possible, since there's always that annoying stormtrooper/rebel guy talking about removing space forces to ground forces can move in or something stupid and annoying like that. I suppose you'd be able to replace that with something else. I just don't know if you'd be able to randomize or customize it per planet.

I'm doing a lot to customise each planet as it is! All the stuff in this post is taking a LOT of time to get right.
Every now an then PR and I brainstorm about particular planets that 'could be improved' so if we get it to work right there may be a good number of our own 'random and/or customised' features as it is.

Part of the problem involved is random won't work. I am re-writing each planet's history and populating the defense fleet accordingly. You may find that what you are looking for is already written into the planet description. You then just have to use your imagination to look at the opposing force and determine if they are rogue moffs, pirates, nitwits or smugglers.
As some fleets may have hidden surprises it woudl be hard to give that kind of transmission without giving the game away. It would also involve a horrendous amount of time and I don't think I could come up with over 250 separate scripts (2 per planet) and have them make sense. I am also putting anomalies into some of the fleets - so does the slaver ship mean that there are criminals in the system or is it there by random chance? Is the Star Destroyer indicative of a massive secret military base on the planet or has it just stopped for the captain to meet his mistress/pick up fresh fruit and veg?

You should have enough in the planet descriptions and the huge variation in fleet makeup to determine this yourselves.

Edited by Ghostrider, 30 October 2008 - 01:25 PM.

[Tropical Bob]

Oh, trust me, I'm not asking any more of you here. I can't imagine doing even half of what you're doing right now. I'd much rather get a pint of Blue Bell dutch chocolate ice cream, sit on the couch, pig out, and watch me some DBZ. Lol...

[Karhedron]

Neither did I come up with the "random" part nor with the need for that to be done for each and every planet. Really no need to be offended.
I just thought it would add to the atmosphere that is why I asked if it would be possible.

I definitly have good enough an imagination to create whole storylines out of the blue while playing PR

Edited by Karhedron, 30 October 2008 - 11:06 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

A lot of what we are trying to do with this is to balance not with respect to the game itself, but to the canon. So, the planetary scores take some factors into account that really have no tangible effect in the game itself, such as galactic location. That means you will encounter both planets with useful advantages that have pretty lackluster defenses and planets with little value that have ridiculous defenses. That's just the state of the galaxy in 18 BBY; it's up to you to successfully exploit the discrepancies.

I think that's more of a way of saying that Tatooine couldn't afford to purchase and maintain an Imperial-class Star Destroyer or two for its defense fleet.

I don't think it's possible to add in another resource, and I don't think that would be a good idea anyway. Just think of it as a portion of the population and credit costs go towards food.

As to adding an additional resource, personally I think it is probable not technically possible and if you do, then you open the door for all other resources to need a place, like fuel, munitions etc. Balancing would be horrendous and I would not like to guess where you got the information from. Besides, all resources eventually boil down to one common factor anyway - money.

Note - that's my opinion but you'll have to wait for PR's definitive answer on resources.

I'd love to add just one more resource: experience, which you would get for killing enemies, capturing planets, and the like and would spend on research and upgrades (perhaps even heroes). That would force a lot more thoughtful decision making than what currently goes into buying upgrades. But that's an ideal world (one with open source ).

It's theoretically possible to track a variable with scripting that could act like a second resource, but I'm not sure how it would work out when it came to actually using it. Furthermore, there would be no dedicated UI spot to track how much of it you had, so you'd have to spam dialogue or something to do that. Even if it could work, it would unquestionably slow the game down even more... the question would just be how much.

This is great news, the biggest problem I had (of the few that can be found) with the Phoenix Rising campaigns is the monotony of capturing pirate-controlled planets. There is little reason to bypass the "auto-resolve" button because of the repitition of these particular space battles. But now the concept of a galaxy with variety and pseudo-factionalism will definately keep the campaign fresh and interesting.

It was obviously unacceptable as it was, but being on a deadline for v1.0 (MOTY voting, winter break), I had to cut some features... and adding unique starting forces was (and obviously still is) just incredibly time consuming, so it was an easy choice.

Unlike PR, I have to do this outside my job!, so please be patient.

True, Ghost is doing this completely on his free time. However, I also have responsibilities! (I just haven't found full-time employment yet, but give me a break because I basically just finished college !)

Just one thing that always crossed my mind as a writer, that is focused on developing a storyline full of suspense for his readers....would it be technically possible to add some kind of conversation at the start of a battle?

It's an interesting idea (and theoretically doable), but we're already spread pretty thin here, so I don't think there's time to devote to it like Ghost said. There would be over 300 conversations to write for GFFA alone.

Neither did I come up with the "random" part nor with the need for that to be done for each and every planet. Really no need to be offended.
I just thought it would add to the atmosphere that is why I asked if it would be possible.

I don't believe you offended him; he was just being emphatic. You asked a question and he answered. Enough said.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 30 October 2008 - 11:30 PM.

[Dr-Ludvig]

Wow man, just wanted to say keep up the good work, i've been away from these forums for some time, but i see it's coming along very nicely, even more than i had expected (: Thumps up, and nice to see a second man on the project.

[anakinskysolo]

Third man, you mean, or fourth, if Kalo Shin is working behind the scenes...

[Phoenix Rising]

Third man, you mean, or fourth, if Kalo Shin is working behind the scenes...

Kalo wasn't able to join full-time, but has said he would be willing to help occasionally in his spare time. So he may provide a few models, but it's unfortunately not the long-term solution we need to make Land happen. That's why Ghost is talking about a v1.2 instead of a v2.0.

[Ghostrider]

Just to let you all know - I don't get offended,
I just try to explain what I'm doing and why.

If my insanse scriblbings come across a bit blunt, no offense meant. I can just be a bit... direct sometimes!

[anakinskysolo]

Third man, you mean, or fourth, if Kalo Shin is working behind the scenes...

Kalo wasn't able to join full-time, but has said he would be willing to help occasionally in his spare time. So he may provide a few models, but it's unfortunately not the long-term solution we need to make Land happen. That's why Ghost is talking about a v1.2 instead of a v2.0.

You are saying that until there is no full time modeler in your team, land is not going to happen? And what would v1.2 add to the mod?