64 replies to this topic

[Kitkun]

On refits:
Loads of work. For each cruiser, it would take five upgrades to work. Each would require multiple scripts to add/remove stuff, and would likely cause a lot of headaches in exceptions and bugs. Each. If PR wants to do it eventually, I say good luck.
'Skipping' upgrades, such as going from Mark I to Mark III, would more than double the work.

Plus, the engine would likely make a button for each and every ship in orbit that you can upgrade. Have a dozen Nebulon-Bs? There goes your entire build bar.
[/Alamo engine hate]

[coinich]

Well, on clutter, could you have it set that upgrading to say a Dreadnaught Mark IV then unlocks the Refit to Mark IV, but Mark V and Mark VI are still unavailable?

[Kaleb Graff]

Well, on clutter, could you have it set that upgrading to say a Dreadnaught Mark IV then unlocks the Refit to Mark IV, but Mark V and Mark VI are still unavailable?

I thought that was obvious. It's a good idea, but the engine makes it hard to do. Maybe if the refit station increased the credit value of sold ships, it would be a decent simulation.

[Kitkun]

I just build the new one, sell the old one, and call the credit difference the refit cost.

[Kaleb Graff]

Yes, but you only get half the cost back and it takes as long as building a new one. I was thinking of increased sell cost to defray that.

[feld]

PR,
Random points in no order.
1. Modern US carrier air wings cost about as much as the ship they fly off. So, in the Star Wars Universe, this means...that's right...absolutely nothing. But saying that your fighter complements double the cost of some carriers isn't sufficient to prove that your numbers are somehow wrong. Just saying...

2. In universe justification for lower carrier costs: say that independent squadrons you buy are for the fighters, the pilots, and THE SUPPORT ELEMENT (maintenance, training, living, admin facilities, as well as all the personnel/droids to go with them). So the player isn't just buying a starfighter squadron when they get them individually...they're buying or expanding a system's starfighter infrastructure. The star carriers come with those facilities (for the whole complement) as part of the base purchase price of the ship (use whatever you're using before adding the complement price).

3. In universe justification for lower carrier build times: there seems no reason to add the times of the squadron to that of the carrier. Say that they get built in parallel. If you want increase the research cost/time of the carrier to represent expanding the starfighter production lines. Boeing can build a 747 in 4 days if all the suppliers deliver the parts on time.

4. If I were running the Imp Star Fleet (and, hey, in this game I am!) I'd want the best fighters to go to the frontline combat ships. The new stuff tends to go to the front, and, in Star Wars, that tends to mean to the carriers. For the Imps. The Rebels might be different.

5. Haven't voted because each the given options seem to miss an opportunity for adding depth the carriers in the mod. Want to throw some wrinkles out there and see if you like any of it. Of course, adding depth means adding work for you:

Carrier Build Cost = Base Carrier hull cost + Sum (k * Cost of Independent Squadron * Number of that type of Squadron onboard)
where k is probably ~0.5 but could vary by fighter type if you think that a particular fighter would be a real pain to park on a ship (big ones like the B-Wing, K-Wing, Skipray or Preybird come to mind)

Carrier Build Time = Lesser of the Base Carrier Build time or the sum of all the complement build times.

Upgrades = Different depending on the ship size class:
Dreadnaught, Capital, and Destroyers size carriers should max out complement upgrade level when they reach the end of their tech tree. So ISD IV's have the TIE x9's.
Corvette, Freighter, Frigate, and Cruiser sized carriers should follow one of your slower upgrade progressions. Don't really know which to recommend. Maybe the last one. The idea here is to prevent the player from spamming cheap high level carriers with uberfighters after (relatively) small upgrade investments in time and money at the low size class end of the spectrum.

So, there you go, my $12 worth.

r/
feld

Edited by feld, 13 January 2009 - 02:24 AM.

[Kaleb Graff]

My only problem with making carriers significantly more powerful is that it would tilt the balance of the game in favor of the Imps. As the imps, I tended to use more in the way of carriers then I did as the rebels, but I find the game well-balanced now, so I think that making them a lot better would be a bad idea. Also, the Imps tended to use swarms of weaker fighters, while the rebels used a few good ones, which could be extended to the imps using lots (Venator) of not as good fighters.

[coinich]

Well, unless the Rebels got ahold of a Lucrehulk...

On a tandem, was that Lucrehulk that got destroyed by the first Death Star carrying all 500 X-Wings? I was under the impression that the Alliance was strapped for fighters at the time, though the loss of 500 in one blast certainly would cause that problem...

Edited by coinich, 13 January 2009 - 04:15 PM.

[Kaleb Graff]

Well, unless the Rebels got ahold of a Lucrehulk...

On a tandem, was that Lucrehulk that got destroyed by the first Death Star carrying all 500 X-Wings? I was under the impression that the Alliance was strapped for fighters at the time, though the loss of 500 in one blast certainly would cause that problem...

I think that the X-wings were launched by the time the Lucrehulk was destroyed.

[coinich]

Every single one of the 500?

[Tropical Bob]

My only problem with making carriers significantly more powerful is that it would tilt the balance of the game in favor of the Imps. As the imps, I tended to use more in the way of carriers then I did as the rebels, but I find the game well-balanced now, so I think that making them a lot better would be a bad idea. Also, the Imps tended to use swarms of weaker fighters, while the rebels used a few good ones, which could be extended to the imps using lots (Venator) of not as good fighters.

Carriers won't necessarily be significantly more powerful if they have upgraded fighters. The upgraded Rebel/New Republic fighters will still be more powerful than the Imperial ones. And you'll always have the chance to blow up the carriers before all the fighters get launched, which give them a big weakness. 35 squadrons appearing at the start of a battle will be harder to take out.

In fact, it's pretty much equal, since buying a Venator-class will also cost you what it takes to build the 35 squadrons of fighters. And the Venator-class research costs should pretty much cover basically more than what you're paying for the fighter research.

[Kaleb Graff]

I'm not sure. If you could release 35 squadrons of x9 fighters into battle, then that should be a match for any reasonable Rebel force. Even making them cheaper would still tilt the balance, as those 35 squadrons now cost 75% as much.

[Kitkun]

I've got them at x6, and it's certainly tough, but not unbeatable. Especially with the massive price tag on it as well as the research.
I know it's just a couple of upgrades above normal, but it's much better than sending a load of x4s in.

I've got the Super Transport and Quasar Fire at full upgrades, and they are very much worth building and upgrading now.

[Phoenix Rising]

1. Modern US carrier air wings cost about as much as the ship they fly off. So, in the Star Wars Universe, this means...that's right...absolutely nothing. But saying that your fighter complements double the cost of some carriers isn't sufficient to prove that your numbers are somehow wrong. Just saying...

I have authentic, and consistent (none of that 3.88 billion crap), price tags for most ships. For PR, I've greatly biased those prices in favor of capitals, since they would never be worth building if I didn't. However, when added to the price of a carrier, the complements are relatively more expensive and time consuming, since they're being built at bigger shipyards. I think this is where the problem lies, and is the out-of-universe justification for introducing a discount.

Forget the mod for a second and let me use those numbers for comparison. A basic TIE Fighter costs GCS 60k, TIE Interceptor 120k, and TIE Bomber 150k. Using those ships to fill a Venator's complement would total 41,400k. The Venator itself costs 59,000k. That's not unreasonable compared to the real-world equivalent.

In PR v1.1, the Venator's Imperial complement costs 19980. The destroyer itself is just 9825. It doesn't seem worth buying if you have to pay in full for a bunch of low-upgrade fighters with it. At half price though, it would only cost 9990, which is much more reasonable compared to 9825.

3. In universe justification for lower carrier build times: there seems no reason to add the times of the squadron to that of the carrier. Say that they get built in parallel. If you want increase the research cost/time of the carrier to represent expanding the starfighter production lines. Boeing can build a 747 in 4 days if all the suppliers deliver the parts on time.

I've considered that too, but many complements also take longer in total to build. The Venator, again, takes 160 seconds, while the its complement takes 876. I don't want to erase that entirely, since it's using a different star base than it should due to game limitations, but it's currently outrageous.

Carrier Build Cost = Base Carrier hull cost + Sum (k * Cost of Independent Squadron * Number of that type of Squadron onboard)
where k is probably ~0.5 but could vary by fighter type if you think that a particular fighter would be a real pain to park on a ship (big ones like the B-Wing, K-Wing, Skipray or Preybird come to mind)

I've always wanted to calculate all of the hangar volumes in cubic meters as a function of their "standard" complement to find out just how many of something you can fit on a given ship, instead of just saying 1 = 1, but I've not gotten around to it. Maybe in the future I will. At that point, you would simply get less of something if it's bigger, or more if it's smaller. There's definitely a reason why Rebel wings are half the size of Imperial ones - they're probably similar in volume.

My only problem with making carriers significantly more powerful is that it would tilt the balance of the game in favor of the Imps.

I could possibly make it so that hyperspace-capable fighters never had to wait to launch from carriers; in other words, they would, in essence, hyperspace in with the rest of the fleet and be available right away.

[El Danny]

I could possibly make it so that hyperspace-capable fighters never had to wait to launch from carriers; in other words, they would, in essence, hyperspace in with the rest of the fleet and be available right away.

This sounds like a great idea.

[SpardaSon21]

Would definitely give the Rebels an advantage since they lose their shield and missile advantages once the Imperials start upgrading.

[Phoenix Rising]

I'll have to see if it's even possible first.

[BansheeMalthus]

Awww, PR man, you hurt my feelings with the 3.88billion crap comment.(j/k) The only reason I put that number in the other discussion was for reference to the costs in the RPG, not for ingame, that would be waaaay to much. As far as the poll, I voted for number 1 and transports. I actually like the cost, especially if the fighter complement is reflected. It seems to me that if you are going to spend all the money on the upgrades, fighters would be included. I modded pr 1.0 with tinkered complements according to upgrade level and starbase level. It made it way more enjoyable for me personally. As far as the transports, I am in favor of those as well. In a pitched battle, with a possible defeat in the works, I would think that any ships with weapons would be launched, if for nothing else than to by time.

[BansheeMalthus]

Its possible, its on another mod, I did it a while back, if you want I will pm the relevant lines to you.

[Phoenix Rising]

Awww, PR man, you hurt my feelings with the 3.88billion crap comment.(j/k)

I didn't even remember you mentioned it, to be honest. It's just way out there, and totally inconsistent with almost every other ship price. You could buy 64666 TIE Fighters for the same price - and those are always listed at 60k. Surely that would be more firepower than one Imperial-class.

In a pitched battle, with a possible defeat in the works, I would think that any ships with weapons would be launched, if for nothing else than to by time.

That was always my reasoning with the shuttles.

Its possible, its on another mod, I did it a while back, if you want I will pm the relevant lines to you.

The tag from the Death Star? Yeah, I thought it would work.