39 replies to this topic

[Puppeteer]

You can't have a Democratic Socialist society?

[Vortigern]

I'm now going to quote you happy, Kacen, just for the hell of it. You clearly don't agree with Brazilian Integralism, as I could tell from the first couple of sentences.

they even had as their slogan: "Union of all races and all people"

4. Eliminate:
- Communists
- Marxists
- Anarchists
- Religious Fundamentalists
- KKK/Neo-Nazis/Racists
- Sexist Institutions
- Primitivists
- Muslims
- Political Dissidents
- Revisionist Conspiracy Theorists
- Anti-Zionists
- Anti-Secularists
- A.L.F./P.E.T.A./Other extremist animal rights activists.
- “New Age” movements.
- Neo-Pagan movements. Leads to primitivism in delusional worship of objects.
- Globalist movements contrary to Advancist doctrine.

How tolerant of you, indeed.

[Banshee]

Brazilian Integralism? How's that? I've never heard of this term here .

(clicky) Apparently it's a legit term...




I'd never heard of it either.

I've actually studied that a long time ago, but I've never seen that as a political ideology. I've only seen it as a brazilian facist group that existed during the dictatorship of Getúlio Vargas (1930-1945). While the leader did not had racist plans, most of the people from it were racists and had (almost) no tolerance for different religions and ideologies.




In a short note, the english article about integralism is wrong in at least one thing: Leonel Brizola was NOT an integralist.

[Casen]

That quote is old, forget it and delete it.

[Rafv Nin IV]

the scoring mechanism of the Political Compass

That's the one. I'm really not this far left at all, but the absence of the "Neither Agree Nor Disagree" option limits my choices severely.

I think that this is the culprit as well, although for this reason and the simple reason that there are not enough questions. I should be way to the Southeast corner, what with wanting to do legalize all drugs on one hand and, on the other, wanting to abolish Social Security, limit welfare and phase out government-subsidized mail and universities.

[Ash]

Surveys are not good bases on which to stand yourself. I did the compass test just yesterday for a laugh and it put me as identical to Gandhi. Whereas anyone who knows me knows I would be much harsher and stricter in enforcing the law than he ever would, although I am a firm believer in civil liberties and freedoms. Its economic left slant is a bit dubious too, although I consider myself fairly left, though more towards the centre than it portrays me.

Surveys also lack the 'it depends' option. In most cases I might believe one thing, but in certain circumstances another option would be better. I think writing out one's own thoughts would presumably be a better judge of left/right and auth/lib.

[Hostile]

Maybe you are discovering your "Inner Ash" Mr Ghandi.

[partyzanPaulZy]

Also there are many craps in that test like:

'From each according to their ability, to each according to their need'

This is double-faced sentence.

From each according to their ability ... so in real world this means from people from the middle class
to each according to their need ... seniors, students, orphans, dissabled people, unemployed who wants to work (but cannot find anything)

This sentence forgets on most really rich people who climbed on heads of the others (10 companions established a company, but only one of them remained on a top, the others were removed by him).
Also don't forget on real offscourings like people who don't want to work so they get their money by other ways, fake handicap or allowances (parasiting on the state or even on the family).

abilities... scientists are poorly paid, state employees are also poorly paid unless they are in high charges. So who has real ability, detective who investigated succesfully 95% of his cases or some bureaucrat with 2-5 times higher wage or son of bussinessman...


That political compass is screwed.

[CIL]

I'm a liberal. Everyone here should know that by now.

[Vortigern]

I don't know why you felt the need to state that. I'm a fascist, à la Mussolini. Take the best parts of either end and mix and match until you find something that works, and kick the shit out of everyone who disagrees with you. I'm also an idle Futurist, which means I believe in bloody revolution to create a new and better world, except that I'm too lazy to do anything about it.

[partyzanPaulZy]

Mussolini helped to create first Czechoslovakian Republic and he also killed it with Hitler...
First part was OK, but when he allied with Hitler... that was really bad.

[Cossack]

The main problem I have with the compass is the religious questions. For instance, when I say I dont want religious values in schools, it makes me less authoritarian. However, had the question been worded "should the government ban all forms of publicly funded religious education", I would have answered yes, which should increase my authoritarian leaning.

The way they word the religious questions, they really should have no influence on either axis of the compass.

[Vortigern]

I think we can all agree it's not a perfect test. To make a fully accurate compass I should think it would have to be 3-dimension at least, there are so many different elements to what people believe. By the way, Cossack, I think I agree with you on religion. It should have nothing to do with schools, government or any other public institution. Nothing whatsoever.

I prefer to remember Mussolini from before he fell in with the Nazis. He was a good leader up until 1936, and then it all went to shit when Hitler persuaded him to kill the Italian Jews. To begin with, Mussolini did not want to ally with Hitler, but the other western European nations turned him away as a dictator, not realising that he could have been a potentially powerful friend. Everyone knows dictatorships produce the best armies.

[Casen]

The test is idiotic. In doesn't even take into account the third positionist/Corporatist meritocratic ideology I and all Fascists hold.

[Casen]

I prefer to remember Mussolini from before he fell in with the Nazis. He was a good leader up until 1936, and then it all went to shit when Hitler persuaded him to kill the Italian Jews. To begin with, Mussolini did not want to ally with Hitler, but the other western European nations turned him away as a dictator, not realising that he could have been a potentially powerful friend. Everyone knows dictatorships produce the best armies.

I agree wholeheartedly.

However the date was 1938 not 1936.

[Tom]

Edit: What does your compass look like then, Tom?

Last time I did it my compass was like -5 authoritarian and -5 left.

[Ash]

Also there are many craps in that test like:

'From each according to their ability, to each according to their need'

This is double-faced sentence.

From each according to their ability ... so in real world this means from people from the middle class

INCORRECT. It means people who do jobs that require skill, such as doctors, dentists, plumbers, electricians, lawyers. However, the lawyer point is moot - they do absolutely fuck-nothing to improve society and yet they rake in ridiculous and embarrassing amounts of money.
Middle-classes would mean those who are either lower landed gentry or owners of companies that require no skill to operate. I mean, anyone can be a painter and decorator - it requires no education whatsoever. The majority of the professions I specified are professions requiring some education as to how to do it.

This sentence forgets on most really rich people who climbed on heads of the others (10 companions established a company, but only one of them remained on a top, the others were removed by him).
Also don't forget on real offscourings like people who don't want to work so they get their money by other ways, fake handicap or allowances (parasiting on the state or even on the family).

No system has found adequate means to eradicate sponges. I mean, look at monarchies throughout Europe. They still exist... and surely one person usurping power from nine others would be some sort of ability?

abilities... scientists are poorly paid, state employees are also poorly paid unless they are in high charges. So who has real ability, detective who investigated succesfully 95% of his cases or some bureaucrat with 2-5 times higher wage or son of bussinessman...

I think you're overanalysing the idea in the correct way - the communist ideal of "each according to need, rather than ability" means that additional resources would be provided to keep everyone equal based on their impoverishment and lower standard-of-living, rather than based on how long they spent at university or in training.

Mussolini helped to create first Czechoslovakian Republic and he also killed it with Hitler...
First part was OK, but when he allied with Hitler... that was really bad.

If Hitler had won the war, it wouldn't have been really bad - Musso picked the wrong side, that's all. He didn't really want to go to war, but since he was economically dependent on trade from Germany he was rather forced into it.

I think we can all agree it's not a perfect test. To make a fully accurate compass I should think it would have to be 3-dimension at least, there are so many different elements to what people believe. By the way, Cossack, I think I agree with you on religion. It should have nothing to do with schools, government or any other public institution. Nothing whatsoever.

Religion shouldn't have a place in schools (faith schools should not exist), government or otherwise. I believe that would class as authoritiarian, but I don't think so.

Everyone knows dictatorships produce the best armies.

AHAHAHAHAHA!!! Know you nothing about the Italian army of WW2? Utterly laughable in every respect - tens of thousands of Iti's would surrender to maybe five British 'Tommies'. They were of poor quality, had a piss-poor doctrine, no morale, discipline or will to fight, and were equipped with little better than WW1-era trash.

[Vortigern]

However, the SS were the best troops in Europe. Maybe Italians are just cowards.

[Puppeteer]

The SS started as Hitler's personal bodyguard, and then expanded when the SA was demanding to be integrated into the army, and was also seen as obsolete under Ernst Rohm. Only one division of the SS became part of the army. I hardly think that's comparable to a state's official army, designed with its purpose in mind. You could say then, with that logic, that democracies breed the most zealous and energetic soldiers, when you look at Britain's elite Commandos.

Edited by Puppeteer, 11 April 2009 - 08:58 PM.

[Casen]

The Fascist Italian army was garbage not because of Fascism, but because of the lack of industry in Italy and much of Southern Europe. The Industrial revolution barely even hit southern Europe.

There were other reasons as well. What the Italian army classified as a medium tank was a light tank by anyone else's standards. They also had defective grenades.

On top of that, many of the Italian soldiers had low morale, mainly because most had sympathy for the allied side, having sided with Britain and France in World War I and not wanting to side with Germany.