21 replies to this topic

[Glaeken]

My nephew and I are making a simple 1v1 skirmish/MP map and wondered if it would be worth it to make it available for others as well.

We are exploring the World Builder program and are currently testing relative choke points. We have made open expanse maps but are now trying new features for the terrains.
We're in the final phase of texturing the map.

Are simple skirmish maps still played by the members here? Or is MP the preference now? Do most players feel they require multiple brutal opponents in which to skirmish against for the game/map to be enjoyable?
We're just curious what the consensus is as we may be inclined to produce maps for others to enjoy and would want to appeal to the 'market' trends.

I'll attempt to add some in-progress pics as 'teasers'.


Textures01


Tech building/Textures02


Ruins and textures


Map ambience - Archery range


In-Progress Pond textures and decorations


This is a non-typical overview picture of the map.
We currently do not have an imaging program that can deal with layers so an EA quality mini-map is unavailable at this time.
The overview/mini-map does not show roads/paths, tech buildings, or creep/lair placements.

Edited by Glaeken, 15 October 2009 - 10:39 PM.

[Devon]

Wow, that looks very good. Kudos to you, and your nephew!


I'd say it's hard to say what the general demand is for maps. All types are enjoyed I guess, and while MP scripted maps probably get played more often, mods such as RJ and (to be released) TDH have added in a lot of simple skirmish maps and received a ton of good feedback.


As for difficulty of AIs, in RJ at least even a hard is going to be a challenge for most players


Oh, have you looked some of the (very) helpful tutorials on the third age website? Especially for the palantir art...

Edited by Yoda, 16 October 2009 - 01:24 AM.

[m@tt]

Oh, have you looked some of the (very) helpful tutorials on the third age website? Especially for the palantir art...

I'd say they are already using my tutorials - the last one especially looks like my texturing style.

It looks really good. Texturing is awesome, and looks very well thought out.

If you guys want a palentir done, I'm sure someone here can help (such as myself) if you provide a overhead shot of the map (with the borders on).

[Glaeken]

Thanks for the encouragement, guys.
Coming from you it means a lot to us.

We've looked at the screens for the RJ mod and its many maps. Well done on those.
Also, the excellent tutorials have given us inspiration and direction that we would not likely have acquired on our own.
And yes, we've used M@tt's texture application style in some areas. It is definitely not as tedious a method when particular textures aren't more applicable - less random.

I'm not entirely sure what a "...MP scripted map.." is, I'm assuming it's some sort of co-op fashion? I've never played MP, perhaps Wes has, I'll ask him.
This map includes Gollum and there is very limited ambient 'action'. Meaning there are two archers that fire at practice targets and another character moves between various points. But that is pretty much it.
There are 2 troll caves constructed that act as creeps, too. They spawn money chests. We're still trying to decide a reasonable amount to be spawned, though.

Troll Cave

We've been unsuccessful in getting other civilian team/faction characters to move, however. Not sure if it is the script syntax or team/faction affiliation, or even the trigger mechanism. Scripting seems to be "hunt & peck" at times. We've been more successful with only 2 to 3 civilian scripts at a time using individual waypoints opposed to waypoint paths. Although I'm assuming the waypoint path is more fluid in the travel, I've yet to get any character to follow one.

Based on what we're reading, this map may not be suitable for MP anyway. There is much more than 100 objects per player. I think we're near the 2300 count now.
We've seen other maps with even more objects than this but don't exactly know if there are maximums for total objects, object types, or etc. Other than the total number of tree types. We're hoping that 'tree types' does not include grasses or shrubs. We're assuming not, but every once in a while while testing the map a rock cluster or grouping of grasses will not appear. Also, sometimes when testing a rock cluster or two will not follow the "align to terrain" as is indicated when opening the map in World Builder. The "align to terrain" is checked and looks good in World Builder, but when tested the cluster is hovering in space. We tried deleting and replacing the exact same object in its place - didn't work. We tried 'edit/replace selected' - no success. Finally tried moving the object a few mm and that worked in only one instance. Had to delete a few others due to not being able to get them to conform.
Like I said, we're exploring the program and figure there are little tricks or tips that make big differences.


We really appreciate the offer for making a mini-map, that was truly unexpected, thanks. We'll likely take you up on the offer.

[Puzzler33]

Pond looks awesome btw.

[_Haldir_]

That looks really good, nice work

I tend to play BFME 1 more than 2, but i think it'd be worth putting it up for download. I'm sure plenty of people would be able to enjoy it if you did If you haven't already, maybe take a look at this topic. It seems like it'd be right down your alley

[Crusard]

The texturework is pretty nice. Just don't worry that much about object count and fill the place with props as you see fit.
The map's layout should provide for a frontal assault kind of game. The side entrances are a bit too narrow for a proper attack (you can just put pikemen+archers to prevent any harrassing) so I'd say you widen them a bit. Also this makes the side entrances too easily rushable.

About the skirmish thing, I only have "fun" when I play vs 2 brutals. The AI is very predictable and a single garrisoned tower can hold them of for a long time. 2 brutals' brutal force makes up for that and gives a fine challenge. Multiplayer vs another human is a lot more fun, especially 2v2 maps (which are more usually played than 1v1 online). Besides there's a lack of good 2v2 skirmish maps online.

Scripted MP maps are definetely the best, since they usually add new things to the game that everyone can enjoy, not just crushing the same orcs over and over with your fully-upgraded rohirrim. Some fun examples are moria revolutions, deeping wall, gladiator, and even the most uber-n00b hero wave maps.

We currently do not have an imaging program that can deal with layers so an EA quality mini-map is unavailable at this time.

You should get the free program, GIMP.

The "align to terrain" is checked and looks good in World Builder, but when tested the cluster is hovering in space.

I've experienced the same problem. For some reason, some rocks only work "aligned" in the editor. You must correct this with map.ini, or preferably use other rock types.

[JUS_SAURON]

Superb Texturing work
It looks VERY Professional !

You can promote the map as a normal Skirmish map
And if you have the Scripting Experience create a SinglePlayer Scripted one

Plot twisits and side objectives make the map more interesting
Open EA Campaign maps for Script advice

There is a tutorial on making a mini-map that is from a word-builder screen-shot on 3rdage

You set camera pitch to 100 , then zoom out camera
You remove all the farms and waypoints /triggers /labels etc.
Take a screen-shot and edit with Mspaint if necc.
convert the bmp file to tga
name it properly and Voila !

(it may take a few tries to get point alignment properly
I mean you click on a point in the mini-map
and it corresponds 100% accurately on the field of play)

Edited by JUS_SAURON, 24 October 2009 - 12:43 PM.

[Glaeken]

Thanks again for all of the comments.

The pond was/is a 'study' project for us. We wanted an artistic feel for the limited water features on this map and was one of the first things to have been done.

Haldir, we checked the link you suggested but have not, as of yet, sent any PMs to the thread author. Not sure if what they want is something we're capable of yet.

Crusard, thanks for the suggestions. We've been trying to locate the scripted maps but are having trouble. *could be my limited search time availability
The side entrance 'problem' in the map, I'll grant you is a condition that existed from the conception of the map onward. We'll explore means and methods for limiting such occurrences in the future. We realize that choke-points are certainly not innovative and we are very open to suggestions concerning possibilities for terrain variation without implementing 'forced' choke-points. We've even gone so far as to visit natural locations, both online and in real life, for inspiration and possibilities. Unfortunately at the time of initial posting the map was already in the process of being textured and we felt that altering applied textures at this point wouldn't be worth the effort. Textures had already been applied and blended on the raised terrains which created the choke-points. And as we've found out, attempting retrograde operations on blended textures is 10 times more tedious than initial texturing.

We're beginning to notice the limitations of the texturing process in rendering purely natural looking effects. Although we'll concede that that isn't quite the ultimate goal nor was it an expected outcome. We were just trying to use the program [World Builder] to achieve a more artistic looking map.
This is said by no means as an expression that we felt other maps lacked an artistic look. We've understood from the onset that a balance between the elements within the game and system were of the utmost importance.


Here is a picture of the player 2 start location.

Player 2 Start (northeast corner)

[Crusard]

Not many authors can achieve those natural looks. Good job, can't wait to see the whole scenario

[Masterbadeend]

If you get a sollicitation mail to EA, we will get a new BFME 3 soon I think .

[Ridder Geel]

...Masterbadeend... they lost the rights to lotr Remember?

[Masterbadeend]

I know, but they'll rebuy it.

[Ridder Geel]

Sure they will...

[Rob38]

Sure they will...

when The Hobbit movie comes out.

[Puzzler33]

Can someone explain the reasoning for the map name, in particular, 'GL'??

[Glaeken]

The "GL" is just the first two letters in my 'avatar name'.
I was concerned to notice a forum member named "Ridder Geel" wondering if anyone would be confused by so close sounding of a nomenclature with regard to the map name. I admit I didn't give the assumed connections any more thought then them being mere coincidences and left it at that.
Whether the pronunciation of "Geel" mimicks "G" and "L" together I don't know with any certainty.
I mean no disrespect.

I hope I haven't offended any pure canon forum members by creating a purely fictional name for a relatively fictional map location.
Again, I mean no disrespect.

We chose the word "Gap" because the terrain references gaps between eroding rocky hills. The location is very loosely situated somewhere within the triangle formed between Rohan, Rhovanion, and Dagorlad. We chose this ambiguity in an attempt to distance ourselves from the canon allowing us more flexibility.
Using the phrase "GL of ?" began as a method for us to keep track of maps we create. Having to sort through non-EA created maps with similar sounding or with actual Middle Earth location names was viewed as troublesome. So, we use the "GL of ?" method of nomenclature.




The name "Glaeken", is a character from the book "The Keep" by F. Paul Wilson. I will not elaborate further on Glaeken as the name stems from a story not at all associated with Middle Earth or Tolkien canon. Apart from the use of the term(s) "First Age" within the Wilson book, it has nothing to with subjects within the scope of this forum.

Edited by Glaeken, 20 November 2009 - 08:41 PM.

[Ridder Geel]

GL Im usually called RG so there is no problem there at all
Those ways of keeping original EA things and your things apart is really good Many do that

Edited by Ridder Geel, 20 November 2009 - 08:45 PM.

[Puzzler33]

Thanks for the explanation. I was just curious .

[Glaeken]

I hate to necro-post on one of my own threads and I apologize for it in advance.


It has been a few months since we've been able to work on the Gap map.
We've made some changes based on many of the suggestions here and while we aren't finished with the texturing; I'd like for someone that isn't quite so vested in the map to play test it and give an unbiased playability opinion on it.
I'll include a second map also (again not texture complete) for testing.

If interested please leave a PM or perhaps a simple reply here should suffice, too.

Again, these are simple 2-player skirmish maps with hardly any scripting (other than Gollum).
Both were made using the BFME II World builder and should be considered ROTWK maps.


Here is a picture of a stream ford from the other map:

Click for larger view

Edited by Glaeken, 27 May 2010 - 04:46 PM.