43 replies to this topic

[RalphDamiani]

Hello there,
I've been playing SEE for the past few weeks and I'm very impressed. There's so much dedication and attention to detail, especially when it comes to material and design choices straight from the books and faitfhul to the canon. PJ would be proud, and EA could most certainly learn a lesson or two.

Compliments aside, while scanning the forums today, I noticed you had trouble assigning Celeborn new powers and made him Galadriel's lap dog (well, he kinda was in the novels). But his backstory is far more interesting and so was his role! Well, as a bit of a lorefreak, I for one am really glad to see that tornado will be moved elsewhere. Still, here are a few suggestions I would find more realistic for him and other elven characters:

Celeborn -
- Move unseen (toggled)- Like Thranduil, he should be familiar with the woods and be a pretty good scout
- Switch weapons - One would expect he is both skilled in the bow and the sword as the leader of the Galadhrim
- Leadership - As the captain of the armies of Lorien in the siege of Dol Guldir, he should be able to inspire his troops
- Call Reinforcements - Summons some Galadhrim warriors to his side, his personal guard maybe?
- Lord of the Golden Wood (Passive) - Galadhrim archers around him deal double damage

Furthermore, I think Galadriel and Elrond could have been a little more interesting, given their knowledge and the possession of the elven rings. One would argue they wouldn't use them openly, but I see this hasn't prevented you guys from going in that direction in the current beta. So here goes:

Galadriel
- Dazzling presence (Passive) - Nearby allies are given confidence (armor bonus?),
- Enthralling Gaze (Passive) - Nearby enemies have a chance to flee (they can't stand her gaze)
- The Mirror of Galadriel - Reveals the map
- Fury of the Noldor - Deals a massive amount of damage to a structure (It is said Galadriel alone tore down the walls of Dol Guldur after it was emptied)
- The Ring of Adamant - A golden mist encases all nearby allies and structures, healing and repairing them (Lothlorien's golden mist and everlasting trees is attributed to Nenya)

Elrond
- Athelas - Fine as it is!
- Herald of Gil-Galad - Trains infantry units like Legolas can train archers.
- Mount - He should be able to ride with his lancers.
- Command Flood - It was Elrond, using the power of Vilya, and not Arwen who summoned the Flood of the Bruinen (see Arwen's replacement below).
- The Ring of Sapphire - This is a good place for re-adding that tornado, perhaps even buff it up a bit, since Vilya is the ring of air and the mighiest of the three.

Arwen
- Mount - Fine as it is! Though Glorfindel should be swiftest rider, as he is rightful owner of Asfaloth!
- Athelas - Fine, she is afterall the daughter of a healer
- Hymn to Elbereth - While singing, she could glow faintly and double her speed and damage.
- The Lay of Luthien - Works like the forest spell around her, cancelling dreadful terrain effects and offering mist and protection to nearby units. This mimics Aragorn's first meeting with her, which alluded to her ancestry.
- Grace of the Eldar - Used on another hero, makes him invulnerable for a period of time, but reduces Arwen's health to 1%. It would be wise to retreat her to safety or use it as a last resource suicide spell. Would give an extra edge against ring heroes. Could have a long recharge time for balance purposes.

Glorfindel
Fine as it is, but I suggest adding this:
- "Noldorin Lord": He becomes glowy, showing his true nature in the spirit world and has a deadly damage bonus against the Nazgul and wraiths (this based on Frodo's account of his appearance and Gandalf's explanation). If you decide to make this Glorfindel the same from the First Age (a disputed but very possible theory), he can also be immune to the Balrog's fear and acquire the same damage bonuses against it (as he has been known to slay one).

Finally, I'll throw two cents on Gandalf's, as I found EA's very poor attempt to portray his powers too much Dungeons and Dragons like. The same goes for Saruman! Please get rid of the lightnings and fireballs!

Gandalf (Glamdring should have a major natural bonus against orcs and the Balrog perhaps?)
- Summon Shadowfax - Fine as it is
- Kindle Hearts - Gandalf was the major turner of events of the Third Age, leader and conselor of all races, everyone should be inspired near him. This should be Leadership on steroids.
- Blinding Light - Stuns all units nearby with a blinding flash of light, causes damages to orcs and goblins (as he did to the globins in the Hobbit). Could use the FX for his current ultimate spell.
- Mount Eagle - Make the eagle look like Gwaihir, but naming him could be troublesame in a match with Elves as allies (cloned Gwaihir). Alternatively, this could be a escape spell, with Gandalf mounting the eagle and being returned to a nearby Fortress, if balance is an issue.
- The Ring of Ruby - All targetted units and buildings within a large radius catch on fire (Narya is the ring of fire).

Well, I have other ideas, but this post is already lenghty enough. On a side note, I'm an artist, I know my way around 3d max and photoshop, if you need an extra hand. I have some artwork at www.ralphdamiani.com should the interest arise!

Good luck and congratulations for keeping this going.

Edited by RalphDamiani, 31 October 2009 - 04:03 AM.

[khamulrulz]

i like those elven ones, but i don't agree with what you said about saruman. in the movie he is clearly shown causing lightning and producing a fireball (also in the books). i also think that gandalf's lightning sword should be kept, as he also uses that in the movie to kill the balrog. i would put the lightning sword in for ring of ruby, seeing as gandalf never uses the red ring.

as for celeborn, i don't see him as an archer hero (elves already have a lot), so i would give him farsight instead of toggle bow. i also think that he should be given more of a grey look, since i don't think he wore white in either the movie or the books (i may be wrong)

Edited by khamulrulz, 31 October 2009 - 05:56 AM.

[RalphDamiani]

Actually Gandalf's lightning and Saruman's avalanche and fireball were purely movie creations. The wizards are far more subtle in their use of power in the books. Gandalf's confrontation with Saruman is a lenghty exchange of words, but Saruman never attempts anything as foolish. Nor do I think he could, imagine what those fireballs would do to Ents, and why wouldn't he used them? With that granted, for gaming purposes, I agree they should be made more visual. But things like chain-lightning and fireballs are way over the top in my opinion, especially with options that are more in-character readily available. Saruman's power should focus on his voice and manipulation, perhaps his ringlore, war speeches and such. And maybe he should be the one keeping the Wizard blast as his unique "supernatural" ability.

I'm aware of the problem concerning the Three Rings and their exposure, but I don't think it's an issue in the beta, since Galadriel isn't too shy about hers. Also, there are good indications thoughout the book that Gandalf did in fact use the ring to enhance his powers. These were Cirdan's words to him ""for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill".
So, who knows if Gandalf's affinity with light and fire, such as when he set set trees ablaze to scare the Wargs or his capacity to give hope and stir Theoden from his slumber, weren't in fact backed up by his possession of the ring.

Farsight would work nicely too! As for wardrobe, here's another suggestion: Why not make Glorfindel wear grey clothes with a white cloak, like in the books? He would look more lordly, and less of a Silvan elf.

Edited by RalphDamiani, 31 October 2009 - 04:08 PM.

[Arthadan]

Regarding Glorfindel's clothes, here you are Mithril Miniature's version:

[khamulrulz]

i stand corrected about the fireball being in the book, but since this is a primarily movie-based mod, why not give him fireballs?

[RalphDamiani]

Gameplay wise, no reason at all. I'm just nitpicking. In this case, the team has done such a consistent job to stay true to the books that I'm just suggesting upon their own design goals. Plus the fireball scene didn't even make it into the final cut, which PJ considers official.

Actually, if it was viable to make 6 hours movies with the whole content from the books, characters like Glorfindel, and the whole confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman would probably make it into the final cut. Unfortunately, streamlining characters and the script is essencial when screen time is an an important issue for a fast paced movie. The fireball was just a visual way to show the audience that Saruman was powerless against Gandalf, something that would require several minutes of dialogue and backstory and wouldn't have much visual appeal. However, it isn't true to the way Tolkien portrayed the Istari. The same goes for their wizard battle, Arwen's extended scenes,, super Legolas etc. Those are just situations when the visual impact preceded the lore.

Nice find, Arthadan! Doesn't he look better? Even if SEE's Glorfindel is already a huge improvement over that hideous platemail armor.

[RalphDamiani]

Back to Celeborn, how about switching between sword and spear (bonus against mounts perhaps?). This would be a nod to Gil-Galad and I can totally picture another Beleriand elf lord wielding a spear in the battlefield. Would also make him unique.

[RalphDamiani]

Well, I'll go ahead and add my two cents for Saruman, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando.

I'm aware Radagast shouldn't be fighting and taking sides, since Tolkien wrote in one of his letters "Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures." However, his birds did scout for Saruman and the friendship of the Eagles and their involvement in the War might have had something to do with him, as he never became evil and remained true to Yavanna's purposes. I picture Radagast as a a slave unit to a new defense building, Radagast's Lodge. He never leaves its surrounding, and naturally, you can only build one instance of it. It would be the equivalent of the Warg's Pen for the forces of Good.

He could be used to enhance the defense of the base, in spirit with SEE's focus on that sort of strategy.

1) Flock of birds - Summons birds to scout the map
2) Friend of the Beasts - Summons beasts to protect the lodge and the surrounding areas (if we borrow from Lord of the Rings Online, bears, lynxes and regular eagles would be suitable!)
3) Entangling roots - Sets up an invisible trap that paralyses enemies that walk over the selected area
4 ) The Will of Yavanna - Destroys nearby enemy buildings replacing them with trees (on a long cooldown probably).

As for Saruman, here's what I pictured:

1) Wizard Blast - Fine as it is, a nod to the movies
2) War Speech - Fine as it is!
3) The Voice of Saruman - Debuff to enemy Heroes, disables Leadership and incapacitates them for a while (stun).
4) Incite Rage - Converts enemy units temporarily, making them attack each other
5) Avalanche - Another nod to the movies that isn't so cliché as a fireball

As for Alatar and Pallando, here's what Tolkien had to say: "I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
I definetly think you should consider some sort of reference to them in the new Harad faction, perhaps Dark Cultists as support units like drummers? And maybe one of them as the ring hero for Harad, under a different guise (Alatar and Pallando were Valinor names).

[Sûlherokhh]

I like your ideas, especially for the elven heroes.

[Nazgûl]

Welcome to the forums Ralph
Hero power coding is not a priority at this stage, but it will be before the next release, so thanks for some nice ideas =)

[RalphDamiani]

Thanks and glad to help! Do you happen to be recruiting artists?

[Adamin]

Well yeah, the abilities of the wizards are somewhat displayed more powerful than in the books. But isn't completely lore-true either:

- The Ring of Ruby - All targetted units and buildings within a large radius catch on fire (Narya is the ring of fire).

For as I remember, the Ring of Ruby wasn't empowered with actual physical fire, but could only encourage bravery, the fire in peoples hearts. So it should be more like a passive uber-leadership as well. And this could be kinda repetitive.

[RalphDamiani]

All three rings were used to "heal and to build" as Sauron never touched them. However, Tolkien did associate Gandalf with fire pretty often, from his temper to fireworks, from his choice of spells to his ring of power. For gaming purposes, extending the power of the rings to their corresponding elements opens up some far more interesting and visual options than something as elusive as abstract fire. Ironically, this is the opposite of my argument concerning subtleties in the portrayal of Wizard spells.

Naturally, the spell can be renamed to Fireburst or something like that, though in that case, Elrond's should be renamed to Tornado and Galadriel to Golden Mist. This should keep most purists happy (I'm not a radical one! ).

Edited by RalphDamiani, 01 November 2009 - 03:59 PM.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Well, if Celeborn was given more warrior powers (like Toggling/Leadership) perhaps he could recieve a new armoured skin? Something resembling the Galadhrim. If he's kept as Galadriel's slave then he might as well remain white robed to match Galadriel...

[RalphDamiani]

I was thinking the same! He should indeed be geared for war! He fought in the defense of Eregion against Sauron's invading army, before the Last Alliance, so his armor should perhaps resemble Elrond's and those from the Prologue.

Edited by RalphDamiani, 01 November 2009 - 04:29 PM.

[Hermoor]

I love to read topics like this, I don't know why
Anyway can some mod open up the tom bombadil topic over at the green dragon?

[Uruk King]

How has that got anything to do with what we're talking about?

Besides if you want a topic reopened, PM one of the admins and ask them to unlock it, if they would.

[Hermoor]

Smart, ok going to contribute a little to the topic. I agree with the first poster about Arwen, she wasn't the one who saved Frodo from the ringwraiths. Glorfindel was, so the water spell for Arwen no. I think she would work better as a healer as her father. I don't agree with her grace of the eldar. Her hp shouldn't be reduced to 1%. That would be pointless, she would make a hero unvornuable for some time and die >_> Skip reduce her hp to 1%.

Elrond should be able to mount definately. Glorfindel should be buffed and appear higher up on the list of heroes. He has lived since the first age, and he has slayed a Balrog. Powerful he is...I think stronger than Legolas. -_-

These are suggestions...

[Uruk King]

Is anyone really sure if the Glorfindel from LotR is the Glorfindel form the Silmarillion?

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

I agree with Hermoor. Glorfindel should be buffed. He should recieve a buff against Nazgul and should also be the fastest horse in the game (apart from Shadowfax) or has this already been done?

Also, if the hobbits are kept in the Elves faction, could they be made into a hero horde? It would, to some degree, reduce the number of selections in the hero menu in the fortress. The hobbits could count as one hero unit...