17 replies to this topic

[Hel Gast]

Note: these ideas are based on the topic http://forums.revora...showtopic=70697, I am only reposting the basic ideas I had in that topic for clarity.

These ideas focused on two things:

• Reworking the resource system
  
• Reworking the damage system

The resource is in my opinion generally flawed: after initial setup I don't really care about it anymore, resources are always abundant. And if resource structures are destroyed, then my income is reestablished pretty soon. This can be changed in several ways (I am taking the farm as an example right now):

• Reduce health or increase damage taken by fire (farms look like cottages with hay all over them: so they should be generally easy to destroy with fire, see also the raiding of the farms in the second movie).
  
• Sharply reduce initial resources of a farm: A new farm isn't ready for full production, the ground isn't prepared, the farmer isn't prepared: so the first crops (level 1 crops) will not pay back that much.
  
• Leveling a farm means improving the ground of the farm (and technique of the farmer). So leveling can be considered as a way to increase resources (as it is now).

Thus idea is to make farms more fragile and low producing in the beginning, and only make them valuable after leveling (which takes some time): Now it is really worthwhile to defend every farm.

The resource system can be refined further more by providing faction specific spells (bad factions: devastation and the likes) or special upgrades to economy (good factions: better mines for dwarves, marketplaces, ...).

The damage system is pretty good actually. Although fire should be more effective on certain buildings (farms for example, or the rhûn tents). But I think that most buildings have to much health initially, I can't imagine that every building is build war-ready (thus fully fortified), and this is also seen in the quality of fortification of buildings (it becomes more fortified when leveling buildings up).

• Level 1: drastically reduce health: building isn't intended for war purposes.
  
• Leveling up would fortify the buildings more and more: thus harder to take down.

By making only siege (and in certain cases fire) attacks effective on buildings will make sure that strange rushes with farmers will not bring down a city in any way. Thus these reductions in health don't have to mean that rushing is back as it is.

So general ideas of this improvement:
We start with level 1 'cities': these are ordinary cities, for ordinary live and cannot truly support a war. They have some defensive structures (fortress, walls) to protect the city against outlaws but nothing more.

When a city goes to war, then the city will need to change its internals, its infrastructure. This is done by gradually improving resource gathering (leveling of farms) and by improving training facilities (fortifying them against raids, and increasing productivity).

When some army then throws down (parts of) such war infrastructure, then it will take a lot of time to recover (especially economy wise). So targeted attacks really do real damage, making quick hit and runs on buildings more effective.

Second Note: I hope this topic isn't to big, but these ideas are strongly related to each other and strongly intended for making you care about (resource) buildings: Else just say so and I will make two separate topics (one for resource, one for structures).

[Gfire]

I agree. This would give more incentive to protect your buildings, and to level them up, and also to destroy enemy resource structures.

Also, the lower level farms give less CP bonus, so that should be important, too.

[Nazgûl]

This, I like

[Sûlherokhh]

Devastation and Spells like Tainted Land could actually influence the resource cellection by affecting farms or blocking farming territory. I like it too.

[Nazgûl]

Further on, I'd also like to extend resource gathering even further, like we have discusses in the "official" topic for resource structures. I'd like to see things like fishing boats and hunters hut, if we can find a way to use neutral animals as resources... =)

[Hel Gast]

Have seen the ideas on fishing boats: but I should keep that as an extra and basically the same for all factions (not all maps have water, and makes balancing a lot easier). There where some further ideas for reworking resources+spells in the mentioned topic, can reread that part, summarize it and and work that out in a new post if you want?

Edited by Hel Gast, 12 November 2009 - 06:55 PM.

[Nazgûl]

That's whay I said extend and not replace
Sure, post as much as you like... =p

[Gfire]

I've noticed them running out on some of my older custom maps (I probably didn't put enough trees on them.) I guess EA just put enough trees on the map that they don't usually run out. But it would be cool it they did (and I think all factions except elves should have lumber camps).

[Hel Gast]

Note: this is all about resource gathering; not about rebalancing the health of resource structures (the other suggestion in the opening post).

I already described how I think the basic resource gathering can be improved (make resource buildings level up slowly, easy to take down, much lower initial production, so that resource buildings need to be protected, especially when leveled up).

But the resource system can be fine tuned a lot more. The introduction of extra resource sources is one way (fishing, hunting, scavenging, chopping down trees); but refining the resources per faction (as described by some theme) can also provide a more interesting game play.

• Isengard: theme: industry and magic. As such their main resource building is the furnace (Industry), and the performance of the furnace can be improved temporarily by magic spells (already in the Spell Trees). Another option is to give Saruman a passive power that improves resource gathering and/or production speed for buildings in his range (see note 1).
• Moria: theme: scavenging. They should really get most of their resources from dead and destruction of others. There basic resource buildings (the tunnels) should only provide a modest amount of resources, but they should get the already existing scavenger Spell Tree power a lot sooner.
• Mordor: theme: food. The main reason for gathering resources for mordor is to keep its armies alive. As such the slaughterhouse is useful. Mordor shouldn't be a faction with a refined resource gathering system.
  
• Gondor: theme: trade. There resource system is initially based on farms; to support locals. But Gondor can really flourish by trade. By building marketplaces as there secondary resource building (markets equals taxes) they should have a higher income resource building. The farms can be further improved by a Farm markets upgrade (either in spell book or at the marketplaces).
  
• Rohan: theme: farmers. The people from Rohan where basically all farmers; as such they should start with fairly cheap and low resource producing farms. The Rohans can improve income rate by leveling up; such a leveled farm provides a higher income as the leveled up farms of other factions.
  
• Lothlorien: theme: trees. They are in balance with nature; and thus I can see them chopping wood from wood plantations (and thus in balance with nature). Maybe a mallorn tree that produces trees in its surrounding that can be chopped down? As a basic (starting) resource building they can have elven farms.
• Erebor: theme: mining. The dwarvers mined and where craftsman; there current mines are good. But they should have some craftsmen spell allowing for deep mining; giving them access to the special mine (now 3000 resources) with much better resource gathering speed.
• Evil men: Cannot really think about something more useful for them right now; have to play with them first to imagine something about them.

Resource gathering from chopping wood should be possible for any faction (note: in the case of elves: they should be able to replant the trees, balance with nature and so); hunting should also be possible for any faction (maybe use it as some kind of healing for the evil fractions; thus that bloodlust can be used on neutral animals to heal Uruks and Orcs). Spell Tree improvements for the bad factions should be active powers based on quick extra resources or reduce others capability to get resources. The Spell Tree improvements for the good factions should be based on improving the resource gathering rate (thus passive power).

Note 1: I really can't imagine Saruman as a real warrior (he isn't in the movies). He should mainly stay in his fortress improving (boosting performance) of the building in his base. Saruman should thus have some powers to do so; some powers to convert or control enemies; and a power to get enemies of his back (when he is surrounded).

I only imagine him to become a strong fighter with the ring, maybe it is possible to give him a separate power set with ring; without the defensive capabilities but with a powerful leadership and a powerful many-unit attack.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

Great ideas there Hel Gast!

For Elves, I guess a Mirkwood Woodcutters Hut or something could be in place. A sort of good faction lumber mill. I like your idea of a respawning tree area (created by a Mallorn tree) that could be chopped down.

An elven spellbook power could be 'Growth' where an area of the map becomes covered in trees which could be chopped down by an Elven Woodcutter unit...

Gondor Marketplace should be the Gondor equivalent of Dwarven Mithril Mines (excpet, obviously not so uber).

I really think that all factions should have at least 2 sources of resource income.

Mordor: Slaughterhouses + ?? (Lumber mill should be unique to Isengard IMO)
Moria: Tunnels + Treasure Trove?/Resource kills passive power from spellbook
Isengard: Furnace + Lumber Mill (+ Industry Spellbook power)

Gondor: Farm (not as good as Rohan Farm) + Marketplace (uber resource structure)
Rohan: Farm (should be best levelled resource structure in game) + (
Erebor: Mine + Mithril Mine
Elves: Elven Farm, Mallorn Trees AND/OR Woodcutters hut/Hunters Lodge

EvilMen: Windmill + Pillage passive spell book power?

[Sûlherokhh]

Great ideas!

The east was home to famous vinyards.

[Nazgûl]

I think that when we get to this stage in production, we'll surely make a real effort to improve things is some manner like this I'm all for extending economy in SEE, as I really love games that focus on such things. Fits perfectly in the SEE concept.

[isledebananas]

For Moria to have a strong economy would depend heavily on how much they have to kill. Specially since most good armies can be more conservative with their troops there won't be as much to kill. They could run into the problem of "I need money to kill them but to kill them I need money". I like the idea though so maybe instead of a spell ability they get a starting building or which kind of gathers the scavenged resources and it could be upgraded allowing for more efficiency in scavenging increasing the yield per kill.

I also like the idea of markets for Gondor. But instead of being a high yield resource building or a place to upgrade farms they just naturally increase farm yield by a certain percent. The bonus could also be cumulative meaning more markets the more output each farm makes, but I think the max for markets should be small like 3-4.

I agree with Hel Gast about Saruman he really should just be in his base most of the time increasing the actual functioning of his war machine. Both he and Sauron are the same though they are both strong because of their nature as Maiar they are more about directing things from behind the scenes. This would also allow for Saruman to be a really long distance spell caster like he was portrayed in the movies.

I think to diversify resources certain buildings should offer some kind of bonus. They should effect units and buildings such as making them cheaper, build faster, or actually be a prerequisite to building them. For example as Rohan you would need a certain amount of farms to build Rohirrim as keeping all those horses well fed needs a lot of food. Maybe for dwarves having something like having a Mithril mine passively increases all units armor, allows the HA upgrade, or cheapens the research and unit upgrade of it.

[RalphDamiani]

All great ideas, but I'd really, really like the elf resource system redesigned. First of all, those tiny mallorn trees look nothing like mallorns. The Lothlorien map has much better mallorn models. However they are very tall and intrusive and thus are bad choices for this system anyway.

I think they should be left only as alternative defensive units, since the archers stationed on the flets look good. Elves did cut down wood, unless their boats and dwellings were summoned from thin air. Still, this is something Tolkien never clearly addressed and lumber mills would certainly feel out of place.

Here's what I suggest for Elves resource gathering buildings and units:
- Elven Grove: A cluster of trees, some bearing fruits. Animals could spawn around it, with elven archers hunting for food. Elven bases would look more forest like.
- Pearl Gatherers: For water maps. A homage to the elves dwelling near the Isle of Balar, whose leader was Cirdan in Beleriand in the First Age. The pearls they gathered were greatly praised, especially by the dwarves.
- Gemstone cutters: A homage to the Noldor, whose jewelcraft was surpassed by none in Middle-Earth. An upgrade that turns the Eregion Forge into a resource generating building.

Edited by RalphDamiani, 15 November 2009 - 01:50 AM.

[khamulrulz]

I suggest:

Gondor: Farm + Hunter's Lodge (produces hunters that kill animals)
Rohan: Farm + Hunter's Lodge
Lorien: Mallorn Tree + Garden (produces elven healers that collect shrubs and bushes, can use elven farm model)
Erebor: Mine + Mithril Hoard (produces miners that take rock from nearby mountains to current mithril mine)
Isengard: Furnace + Lumber Mill (labourers chop down trees)
Mordor: Slaughter House + Lumber Mill
Moria: Tunnel + Treasure Trove (same function as mithril hoard, must have new building for unit upgrades, as treasure trove is used for resources)
Harad: Mill + Water Hole (slaves go to water, take bucket loads to water hole) - edain mod had good model i think
Rhun: Windmill + Hunter's Lodge

that way everything they gather is already on the map, with certain factions getting advantages if there are more animals or trees or mountains or water, etc.

these secondary resource buildings cannot produce warriors, so labourers won't be able to attack enemies. snagas would be moved to slaughter houses, furnaces.

for factions with the same secondary resource thing (hunter's lodge), i suggest different skins to make them unique.

Edited by khamulrulz, 15 November 2009 - 02:14 AM.

[Arveanor]

I think this topic sounds pretty good overall but the idea of having the different factions all have a structure that sends out laborers to collect resources based on what the map has to offer. These structures would alter the game too much based on what map your playing on.

I think some of the ideas regarding marketplace changes for gondor, an elven forest, the treasure trove idea, and other such buildings for the various factions are a much better idea, leaving the lumber mill as an isengard exclusive. I definitely like the idea of a universal fishing boat though, as these would be perfectly balanced, and would add a larger focus on the sea.

With regards to the elven forest, would it be possible to have different sizes of forests you can build somehow? or could you decrease the area the tree collects from so you can really pack trees in, but if there will be so many of them in a small area, I think these trees should be very cheap and collect a minimal amount of resources.

For Gondor I'd like to see more interesting upgrades at the marketplace. A basic tax to gain additional resources from all farms and maybe a small amount gathered by the marketplace from trade would be nice, but I think it should have some interesting upgrades that can be applied to the farms to give them more resources.

Those are the only ideas I've got right now, but this topic seems to have plenty of good ones anyway.

[Gfire]

The game's only made for trees to be harvested. I suggest sticking to that, having the basic BFME2 resource structures, as well as a lumber mill for everyone except elves. If balanced properly elves wouldn't need another one.