225 replies to this topic

[Pasidon]

Well don't be surprised by it. Opposition is always seen as hostility, and Revora is no exception. But on that last note... I do very well agree religious zealots and high standing followers always catch a tone or two when faced with opposing odds, for very good reason... if Maig's reasons were so. Angels and Atheists are always in a knowledge struggle because the other cannot see the other's point of view. Since it's on the original subject... I might as well bring it up. But this little tangent will help you understand my insight on the matter we're debating. Science always gives the facts and facts can ruin harmony. Religion always gives harmony and harmony can over-write the facts. I am left to question the motives of why some people believe what. This topic is the perfect case study. Maig takes his stand because he would be a hypocrite any other way, being religious and believing men can prevent their... blasphemous temptations, as a gospel would put it. But you follow the same rules too Wulf. You're a practitioner of the other end of Maig's believes so it is the reason why you believe the opposite and oppose him. Yet I don't know if it's for scientific or personal reasons... maybe both. But I mention this for a reason. It's interesting to ask if your genetics are forcing you two to fight each-other personally or if it was brought up by your own free wills. You both made rational decisions to say what you have said. Yet what is free will... temptation to make a decision. What is a decision... an act chosen by our rationalities. And rationality... thought determined by our logic. And logic... reason conjured by our intelligence. And intelligence... data we collect through the world. You all can figure this out better than I can. Are you able to resist the temptation of breeding with any female / male you see? In fact you probably resist that every day. You may wish to mate with a favorably female you see on the street, but you don't. But you could... and that is free will. And in the end free will was given to you by experience in life, not by your genes. If we are able to ignore what we are mentally told to like, then it is very possible homosexuality is no exception. And those traits you prefer in a mate were easy to figure out because of genetic memory, and you develop the sense of what these traits are by interacting with them with your senses throughout life. The exact traits aren't given to you on a genetic platter. Yet preferring male traits learned over female ones does not make you a homosexual. Having sexual relations with the same member of your gender does, and that is decided by free will. It is free will deduced by your decision, rendered by your rationality, produced by your logic, and calculated by your intelligence that you yourself could only gain in life, not by your cells. Therefore, to further explain my point, homosexuality is ultimately the product of you, the world around you, and not your cells.

[Puppeteer]

Yet preferring male traits learned over female ones does not make you a homosexual. Having sexual relations with the same member of your gender does, and that is decided by free will.

Sexuality is determined by sexual attraction, not sexual intercourse. Celibacy doesn't stop you being gay.

[Allathar]

Nor does it stop you being gay, a child molestor and a pedophile, it seems.

[Puppeteer]

Nor does it stop you being gay, a child molestor and a pedophile, it seems.

Zing!

[Pasidon]

Not quite. It's both the attraction and the act. Though I don't see how I'm a marine biologist just because I know about fish.

[Romanul]

I have to agree with Puppeteer.

Well don't be surprised by it. Opposition is always seen as hostility, and Revora is no exception. But on that last note... I do very well agree religious zealots and high standing followers always catch a tone or two when faced with opposing odds, for very good reason... if Maig's reasons were so. Angels and Atheists are always in a knowledge struggle because the other cannot see the other's point of view. Since it's on the original subject... I might as well bring it up. But this little tangent will help you understand my insight on the matter we're debating. Science always gives the facts and facts can ruin harmony. Religion always gives harmony and harmony can over-write the facts. I am left to question the motives of why some people believe what. This topic is the perfect case study. Maig takes his stand because he would be a hypocrite any other way, being religious and believing men can prevent their... blasphemous temptations, as a gospel would put it. But you follow the same rules too Wulf. You're a practitioner of the other end of Maig's believes so it is the reason why you believe the opposite and oppose him. Yet I don't know if it's for scientific or personal reasons... maybe both. But I mention this for a reason. It's interesting to ask if your genetics are forcing you two to fight each-other personally or if it was brought up by your own free wills. You both made rational decisions to say what you have said. Yet what is free will... temptation to make a decision. What is a decision... an act chosen by our rationalities. And rationality... thought determined by our logic. And logic... reason conjured by our intelligence. And intelligence... data we collect through the world. You all can figure this out better than I can. Are you able to resist the temptation of breeding with any female / male you see? In fact you probably resist that every day. You may wish to mate with a favorably female you see on the street, but you don't. But you could... and that is free will. And in the end free will was given to you by experience in life, not by your genes. If we are able to ignore what we are mentally told to like, then it is very possible homosexuality is no exception. And those traits you prefer in a mate were easy to figure out because of genetic memory, and you develop the sense of what these traits are by interacting with them with your senses throughout life. The exact traits aren't given to you on a genetic platter. Yet preferring male traits learned over female ones does not make you a homosexual. Having sexual relations with the same member of your gender does, and that is decided by free will. It is free will deduced by your decision, rendered by your rationality, produced by your logic, and calculated by your intelligence that you yourself could only gain in life, not by your cells. Therefore, to further explain my point, homosexuality is ultimately the product of you, the world around you, and not your cells.

Small offtopic:
Dude...can't you leave me some spaces?I already got a headache from too much wine,just please leave some space so that I can understand each_individual_idea,not read the bible.Really,when I see you writing that much,I simply tend to ignore the whole post.Really.

[Pasidon]

Well that's the flaw in your argument I would imagine.

[Bart]

Really,when I see you writing that much,I simply tend to ignore the whole post.Really.

[Florisz]

I have the feeling Matias can say pretty much anything he wants without a warn. And maybe Pasidon described how it can be humans are like they are today.

[Pasidon]

Looks like someone got the point.

[Spectre]

Lets say I am an atheist, everybody would find it offensive if I tried to explain to people ( using scientific facts) that Bible is full of .. incorrect informations.

But if someone would unleash his religious believes over me than it would be ok, because he is trying to save my soul.

If I may backtrack for a slight second, I would like to point out some obvious bias in this post - Either I'm just misunderstanding this post, or he's implying that if an athiest were to attack the Bible with Scientific Reasoning, that's basically bad; yet if a religious man spoke against him, forcing his own beliefs upon the athiest, then it suddenly becomes acceptable and a good thing?

You guys have serious issues. You see religion as something bad, something that harms people. I dont remember reading in bible that you should beat up gay people, or anything else. Every religion has in its basic the same things: do not steal, do not lie, do not kill, do not harm others, treat everyone as your brother. You cannot blame religion for acts of some crazy ass fanatics that broke rules of that religion ages ago.

As I see most of you guys are atheist, as I was before I started to think with my head, and you therefor have some grudge against religion. And that is sad. When you have nothing to believe in you get what we have today.

Oh, the Irony that I see in this post - the first paragraph was apparent, but they tore you a new asshole for that one - may we carry on to the Second sentence? How I love this sentence; this whole argument you have tried to get your point across to not attack Christians for beliefs, yet this little line marked for your convenience sent your part of the debate crashing down. Although you tend not to see it the way I do, I'll point it out so that you'll understand.

atheist, as I was before I started to think with my head.
Am I the only one who saw this? I may be quick to misunderstand, but I know very well that you meant to imply we Atheists are "Not thinking". May I also add that your usage of the term 'Atheist' when speaking about Revora broadly is also wrong - if you actually took the time to notice, you'd see that amidst the Atheists, a whole lot of us think of things differently - Matias, for example, preaches his Apatheism (That or Nihilism, I've forgotten which) and I seem to agree with Agnosticism. Back to the primary debate, I find it funny how you wish for us to stop speaking poorly of Christianity, yet you imply Atheism is the root of all evil through your posts alone.

Also - a question for you. I'm Agnostic (I'll leave the researching to you), does that make me a heathen as well? All Agnosticism asks is that you provide more solid evidence to the belief of a God; is this so hard? I don't believe in Christianity technically, am I damned to hell? What about other religions? Just for the sake of argument, everyone drops dead at the same time - just magically out of nowhere falls to the ground lifeless - Will God allow all the Christians into heaven whilst he tells the rest of the world "To fuck off" just because we didn't believe in your god?

Edited by Spectre, 07 April 2010 - 04:40 AM.

[Beowulf]

Bit of a misconception there Spec, there is no such thing as being an agnostic. If you don't believe in god, you're an atheist. It's as simple as that. You can be an atheist agnostic and even a theistic agnostic. Atheism is not denying the existence of a god; it is simply not believing in one. And agnosticism is the belief that you cannot understand the true nature of a higher order.

Had to clear that up.

[EDIT] Oh, and I saw that part of his post, I tried to respond but I was laughing so hard I couldn't write.

[duke_Qa]

I've always looked upon Agnosticism as a better definition than Atheism, since I've always thought of Atheism as in the total rebuttal of any sort of cosmic horror farting out our universe after a big 5-dish dinner.

But if you say that Atheism is the refusal to believe in a Abrahamic God-figure or generally a creature that created the universe specifically for us, then I can agree. But It would be just as religiously fanatic to claim that the universe is as we think it is.

[Beowulf]

I used to think the same, duke. But I looked into it more and it's not quite as black and white as "there is no god." Same with agnosticism. It's a lot more involved than one simple concept. Hence why you can be an atheist agnostic or a theistic agnostic.

[Romanul]

If you don't believe in god, you're an atheist.

And apatheism?....surely isn't it a "middle way"?

Edited by Romanul, 08 April 2010 - 01:40 PM.

[Pasidon]

I was to believe it was meant to be the moral characters among atheists, but I can't tell the difference anymore.

[Puppeteer]

Pure apatheism is neither theism nor atheism. Most apatheists would lean one way or t'other, though.

[Pasidon]

So they're atheists who are excepting of certain aspects of religion?

[Puppeteer]

No.

[Mathijs]

So they're atheists who are excepting of certain aspects of religion?

Apatheism is not caring either way if there is a God or not, because the question of the existence of God is not relevant to one's life.

Apparently there is a wikipedia page now, it wasn't there when I last looked. This way of thinking hasn't been defined for long.

Oh and Spectre, nihilism is just something I tell people I believe in when they ask. Shocks them right out of ever asking that question again. I have never really bothered looking into its many variations and definitions, I just don't really believe in anything.

Edited by Matias, 17 April 2010 - 03:42 PM.