14 replies to this topic

[isledebananas]

In the Unique Factions Buildings thread there came up discussion about Rhun's theme and what should be included in it. Since it got a little off topic over there it was suggested to create another topic in the proper area.

From what I have read Nazgul himself believes that Rhun should possess a dragon theme. This comes mainly from their armor which seems scaly(at least in the movies) which could be some emulation of dragons.

I think the plan which includes moving Drogoth over to Rhun(I'm not sure if this is true just something I heard) as well as some spell book powers involving dragons. However, resident lore experts seem to think that the connection is somewhat more limited.

We know they had cults of some sort perhaps created by the Blue Wizards or already existent that were expanded by the the Blue Wizards. We also know they worshiped Morgoth and then Sauron.

I was never really a fan of the Dragons save for the Smaug summon. Dragons are mainly a First and Second Age sort of beast similar in fashion to the Balrog. They are generally the mightiest of Morgoth's creations and in my opinion generally second strongest in his armies behind the Balrogs. Basically mastery over such powerful creatures comes through possessing greater power than them. Only Sauron at that time could hope to command creatures of such might. That's why I don't like to see too many of them running around.

I think any dragon themes should be reflected mainly through abilities. Hero abilities or spell book powers. They should either buff allies or weaken enemies. What we know of Dragons is that they are very big, have powerful fire that comes out, near impregnable hides of scales, and sharp teeth and claws. Also there is a mention of dragons tails whipping power being like lightning/thunder and their wings making torrential winds. I don't think its too outlandish for some of those purported magical cults to have used some subtle magics to emulate dragons. Basically maybe some spells or hero abilities that could give things like: armor buffs, attack damage buff, attack speed buff, flaming damage even for melee fighters. These would of course all be for a limited time.

[Predi]

Personally I don't like the dragon theme in Rhún/Harad. The dragons should stay with Moria (beast theme), they are better suited there. I think Rhún should stay alongside a war effort - damage dealing/heat - fire/dark magic line. But I'm not the boss here so I have no saying in this. Just my opinion.

[khamulrulz]

yeah i think that because rhun and harad are probably going to stay together, drogoth should stay with moria. same with all dragons. the evil men faction already could have tier 4 powers like sandstorm and mumak rampage, and the fortress monument will be used to build the royal mumak. so no drogoth or other dragons required for rhun/harad

[Arveanor]

I was never really a fan of the Dragons save for the Smaug summon. Dragons are mainly a First and Second Age sort of beast similar in fashion to the Balrog. They are generally the mightiest of Morgoth's creations and in my opinion generally second strongest in his armies behind the Balrogs. Basically mastery over such powerful creatures comes through possessing greater power than them. Only Sauron at that time could hope to command creatures of such might. That's why I don't like to see too many of them running around.

Did it ever occur to you that if your considering dragons second to the balrog, that maybe the goblins shouldn't get the balrog? of course not, and why? because he's in the movie, well no not really, that's the reason he's there but why isn't that questioned, well because it makes sense because the goblins have no thoughts of ever controlling the balrog, he controls them. Why couldn't the same relationship occur with the men of the east, sure, dragons just sit around on treasure for all their lives, but what about the part of that in which they acquire treasure? Well I gotta say that having an army of corrupt, wicked men wouldn't be entirely contrary to the goal of obtaining a vast hoard of treasure. Also if I'm one of those said corrupt men who am part of a dragon-worshiping cult set up by wizards long ago, it won't take much persuasion from a dragon to get me to do what he asks.

Personally I'm more of a fan of the backstabbing, stealthy, manipulative style seen in the CAH's but I don't know if that has any basis in lore.

[isledebananas]

I personally like having the Balrog around just so I can use Gandalf to kill him ala the movies lol. But he was there in the lore and in the movies. However, to limit his strength he is a summon. Goblins didn't really do what he said he pretty much stuck to himself waiting around till the ring finally came calling strange since it wasn't too far in the first place with Gollum.

Smaug is often described as the last dragon of Middle Earth or at least he is confirmed the last of the great winged dragons. There may be more or some kind of variant subspecies like drakes in the the Grey Mountains. I guess its not impossible for them to be in the Rhun area, but nothing of the sort is described in lore. The resident lore masters would get an anurism or something if there were even 2 dragons in Rhun.

The lore masters anyways suggested that the main cultist activity is geared towards worshiping of Evil Ainur specifically Sauron and his former master Melkor/Morgoth Bauglir. However, I do see that perhaps the people of Rhun both feared and respected the might of dragons and wished to emulate them. Their ancestors were around when Dragon's were common so its not farfetched that stories were passed down. Sauron through his powers could give them abilities similar to things dragons would have albeit on a weaker level. I think that fits better with the concept of them emulating dragons in their culture. However, Sauron actually commanding a dragon is a bit much especially considering he is in a weakened state. Most of them would consider him to be on equal level to them even if they were somewhat weaker.

[khamulrulz]

i think that if rhun and harad are kept together (it appears to be that way), the dragons don't need to move to rhun. drogoth and the dragon's nest would stay at moria. the fortress monument for the rhun/harad faction would be the mumak monument, which makes the royal mumak.

[Sûlherokhh]

I was never really a fan of the Dragons save for the Smaug summon. Dragons are mainly a First and Second Age sort of beast similar in fashion to the Balrog. They are generally the mightiest of Morgoth's creations and in my opinion generally second strongest in his armies behind the Balrogs. Basically mastery over such powerful creatures comes through possessing greater power than them. Only Sauron at that time could hope to command creatures of such might. That's why I don't like to see too many of them running around.

As Arveanor already posted, the idea was that a hidden dragon is the force behind the throne.

[Arveanor]

I personally like having the Balrog around just so I can use Gandalf to kill him ala the movies lol. But he was there in the lore and in the movies. However, to limit his strength he is a summon. Goblins didn't really do what he said he pretty much stuck to himself waiting around till the ring finally came calling strange since it wasn't too far in the first place with Gollum.

Smaug is often described as the last dragon of Middle Earth or at least he is confirmed the last of the great winged dragons. There may be more or some kind of variant subspecies like drakes in the the Grey Mountains. I guess its not impossible for them to be in the Rhun area, but nothing of the sort is described in lore. The resident lore masters would get an anurism or something if there were even 2 dragons in Rhun.

The lore masters anyways suggested that the main cultist activity is geared towards worshiping of Evil Ainur specifically Sauron and his former master Melkor/Morgoth Bauglir. However, I do see that perhaps the people of Rhun both feared and respected the might of dragons and wished to emulate them. Their ancestors were around when Dragon's were common so its not farfetched that stories were passed down. Sauron through his powers could give them abilities similar to things dragons would have albeit on a weaker level. I think that fits better with the concept of them emulating dragons in their culture. However, Sauron actually commanding a dragon is a bit much especially considering he is in a weakened state. Most of them would consider him to be on equal level to them even if they were somewhat weaker.

well all of that seems more sensible, of course we hardly know anything about rhun, but their were many flightless dragons as well like drakes which you mentioned, so I wouldn't expect them having an influence over the mote would be too far a stretch, but either way is fine by me, I'm just trying to point out how the dragon theme could work beyond what you suggested.

[isledebananas]

I certainly wouldn't mind a drake like creature being with Rhun as long as it doesn't have that fire breath attack. Perhaps not as a hero but perhaps as a summon through one of the Rhun heroes. Since they aren't as powerful as the winged dragons I don't think its impossible for one of them to have been reared from birth by some tamer. It would be kind of like how the powerful Mumakil are raised by Haradrim although a drake I think would be more naturally untamable.

However, now that you all have mentioned it I remember somewhere that if Smaug had still been around he would no doubt have been with Easterling attack on Erebor and further into Rhovanion. I guess its not impossible but I still think its cool if they have dragon themed spells of sorts as well.

[Arveanor]

yeah, I'd definitely think that a drake would work well though I think they should have some sort of fire-breath ability, but yeah, it definitely shouldn't be a fire auto-attack, and some cool abilities would be sweet

And since somewhere around here I've seen talk about heroes that stay at the base to help with economy etc, so what about a fire-drake-ish thing that sits at the base and helps to generate income, seeing as how dragons are treasure hoarders, but I'm not exactly sure what the mechanic behind that would be, maybe 'inspiring' the men to work harder to get him more treasure.

Oooh, and as for abilities, I'm thinking a curse type thing like we see in the story of the children of Hurin with the dragon, the name of whom escapes me, holds Turin and his sister(I think both at different points) and releases Turin who is cursed while making his sister go mad, it would be a great way to take care of heroes

[Nazgûl]

Since there are very nice dragon models in game... it would be a shame to just waste them. And Sul and I are pretty much in sync on the idea that they fit this faction best. Moria will evolve around the Balrog (which is stong enough in it's own), just like Rhun will have the dragon theme. This doesn't mean however that Easterlings will in any way "control" dragons. They worship them by some old cult set up long ago by the blue wizards, yes *letting my mind run free* =P Hence, the dragons return the favor by assisting Rhun in battle. I know this isn't 100% up to date with the lore, but... just like in the movies, we "have to" elaborate a bit to make a full game =) There wont be tons of dragon units though, but my plan is that Smaug will be summonable by Rhun only, and I might even use a donation from Edain mod to have Smaug actually be playable like Drogoth (replacing Drogoth and removing the dragon raid summon). Besides Smaug, there would be the regular dragon summon, with the landing dragon that is currently in Isengard (?).

These are just loose plans, all I know is that we decided upon a dragon theme for Rhun, much due to the fitting design of the armor and arcitecture + having a better place for all the BFME2 dragons to reside. Future pans also include splitting Harad into a faction of it's own, and they'd get the Mûmakil and serpent theme instead...

[Ridder Geel]

Naz, you might want to watch out with the amount of factions There is a stupid limit to the "multiplayer" Factions... (at some point the newer faction cant be played on multiplayer anymore)

[Námo]

... I know this isn't 100% up to date with the lore, but... just like in the movies, we "have to" elaborate a bit to make a full game =)

Well, it is possible to 'tweak' the lore, within limits ... if the dragons are connected to some kind of 'worship of Morgoth'.

[Nazgûl]

Off course... all evil dedication must spring from a devotion to Sauron and on a greater scale; Morgoth =)

@Ridder: We'll never pass a greater amout of factions than those we have discussed for long. Two more evil factions (Rhun & Harad) and one more good (Rohan). I know some mods have a lot more than that =p

[isledebananas]

I am in complete agreement with Smaug moving to Rhun. Like that example I gave it makes sense if he was still alive he would be the main leader when the Easterlings attacked the Erebor region. I think perhaps making Smaug a permanent summon(with all that entails as you have discussed elsewhere) from the spell book that also costs resources as well(if thats possible). Considering he would be the most powerful single unit save Sauron I think there should be some big requirements/restrictions.

My idea was for Rhun's unique building to be kind of a temple or alter to Morgoth or Sauron or what they represent the Shadow. By either sacrificing villagers(like orcs to slaughterhouses but moves the ability timer), sending them there to worship(which causes recharge of ability timers), or through purchase per use would give them use of spells similar to the Spellbook powers though not the same ones as the spellbook. As you said I could see them revering dragons and wanting to emulate them and so by worshiping they gain the favor of Sauron who gives them dark powers to use which emulate dragons. Things like flame damage to weapons or huge armor bonuses all for a set duration. I just get this idea from Smaug himself describing his strength and how they were compared to weapons and armor of that time.

Then perhaps the Smaug summon could require this Alter of Shadows to be useable or something. Or perhaps even some of their more powerful units or upgrades only by having this building.