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#1 Arveanor

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 02:30 AM

Does it bother anyone else that a small group of dwarves which are, I believe 4-5 feet tall, at best, can spring at my soldiers and knock them down, even killing them if they don't have HA or if their weaker units. :p

I mean, that's about as effective as a cavalry charge, if not more effective, but cavalry is a 5 1/2 - 6 1/2 ft soldier in armor on a massive war horse also covered in armor. Now am I really supposed to believe the effect of a dwarf running into me will equal that of a horse with soldier running OVER me?

Not only is the horse and rider combo considerably more massive, their moving faster!

So I'm thinking that we need to get rid of this silly ability for the dwarves, and if we must, give it to someone else, but preferably just leave it out, in rotwk it fit for the snow trolls, but DWARVES? The idea of any kind of DWARF running down soldiers makes no sense whatsoever.

Thanks for reading ;)

#2 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 09:24 PM

They don't trample them, they knock em down. Not many people can stay standing from a full force hit of dwarves, little effing strong mothereffers that can smack you in the face with that shild and knock you down. The speed up is for more momentum, which would also help in the knocking down.
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#3 Námo

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 10:17 PM


... spring at my soldiers and knock them down, even killing them [...] fit for the snow trolls ... running down soldiers ... :lol:

O'Really? I would like to SEE proof of that ... I can't really believe them being that agile, them snow trolls ... used to be slow, dumb monsters, no good at jumpin' :p

... I agree with Ringo's statement above; ... and btw ...

Now am I really supposed to believe the effect ... of a horse with soldier running OVER me?

Now, you shouldn't believe that - at least that's not the behavior of normal horses (I have a few in real life, and their natural first reaction are to flee, run some hundred meters, and then stop trying to figure out what might have scared them) ... it's against their instincts to run down people, so they need a lot of training to dare such things. ;)

And never underestimate the fury of an angry Dwarf ... might be fatal for you, probably ... they are the toughest warriors in Middle-earth! :omg:

Thanks for reading :p

Thanks for posting, and have a nice time in these fora ... and some fun :p


Edited by Námo, 07 January 2010 - 10:47 PM.

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#4 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 01:36 AM

Ringo? Now I've been called EVERYTHING. :lol:
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#5 khamulrulz

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 02:34 AM

i think a full body check from a charging dwarf would knock anybody to the ground... so yeah, that effect is realistic.
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#6 Arveanor

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 04:09 AM

Umm, I'm still having trouble believing the little devils could do quite so much as they do, not to mention that while a dwarf would probably knock anyone who is posting here down, I think they'd have a tougher time against a stout, well trained soldier.

And even if they knock them down, exactly how do they KILL weaker units? I think it at least needs a damage decrease.

O'Really? I would like to SEE proof of that ... I can't really believe them being that agile, them snow trolls ... used to be slow, dumb monsters, no good at jumpin' dry.gif


I would consider a tree very slow, and more than dumb, however I don't want to be in the way of a falling tree, point is, snow trolls are large enough that if they run into you, nevermind that they may not be moving fast, they'll at least knock you down.

Now, you shouldn't believe that - at least that's not the behavior of normal horses (I have a few in real life, and their natural first reaction are to flee, run some hundred meters, and then stop trying to figure out what might have scared them) ... it's against their instincts to run down people, so they need a lot of training to dare such things. wink.gif


Yeah, it sure is against their nature, no question about it, but they can certainly be coerced into doing it with enough training and spurring onwards.

And never underestimate the fury of an angry Dwarf ... might be fatal for you, probably ... they are the toughest warriors in Middle-earth! omgsmilie.gif


I'll be sure to remember that next time I'm in Middle-Earth, thanks for the tip :lol:

Ringo? Now I've been called EVERYTHING. xd.gif


If I called you bingo, would that be a first?

#7 khamulrulz

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 05:24 AM

we aren't directing personal attacks at you, so there is no need for anything of that tone in return. but dwarves are very strong, and even stout, well-trained soldiers would get knocked over by a 200-pound warrior with a low centre of gravity.
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#8 Námo

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 06:19 AM


/off-topic:

Ringo? Now I've been called EVERYTHING. xd.gif

If I called you bingo, would that be a first?

Bingo was in fact the first name, that Tolkien used in the early drafts for LotR, for the character that later became Frodo Baggins. :lol:


Edited by Námo, 08 January 2010 - 06:19 AM.

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#9 Arveanor

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 06:25 PM

we aren't directing personal attacks at you, so there is no need for anything of that tone in return.


Umm I think you read a tone that wasnt in there, though I do see how that could be seen in there, I'll try to make it more clear next time :p

dwarves are very strong, and even stout, well-trained soldiers would get knocked over by a 200-pound warrior with a low centre of gravity.


I believe most human/orcish/elven soldiers would have a similar weight, though elves may be lighter. Anyway their ability seems a bit ridiculous, and I still don't get how they are able to kill weaker units.

Oh, and my brother just reminded me of the time a group of guardians used this on an attack troll and took out most of its health, and then finished it with their bonuses that they get, that may have been a bug or something but... that's messed up.

Bingo was in fact the first name, that Tolkien used in the early drafts for LotR, for the character that later became Frodo Baggins. biggrin.gif


I don't quite get how that applies to Ring o' Fate, but you really are a loremaster. :lol:

#10 Námo

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 07:26 PM


It didn't refer to o'Fate at all, it was just some association between that particular name and the lore - a funny coincidence; I just did choose to see the humorous part of the post, not that I did feel any angry tone in the other part. :lol:

And have a nice journey, next time you travel to Middle-earth - I go there quite often, temporarily mostly speaking Khuzdul with the Dwarves, and traveling the eastern parts, in Rhûn, the reason I'm not much around in these fora. :p


... elen síla lúmenn´ ómentielvo ...
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#11 Archon

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:09 PM

I believe most human/orcish/elven soldiers would have a similar weight, though elves may be lighter. Anyway their ability seems a bit ridiculous, and I still don't get how they are able to kill weaker units.

Yes, but they're shorter and have a low center of gravity, which gives them a huge advantage. Watch NFL football.
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#12 ttandchotmail

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:43 AM

As for the knocking down of the enemy units to the guardians I can think of no other way they would stand a chance really. A species half the height of any man, elf or urik. To survive over the centuries the figting style they would have to adapt just to stay alive would be that of making your larger opponent lose balance and as the dwarven unit says " now I'll cut you down to my size ". If they couldn't learn a fighting style like that the dwarven race would have been wiped off middle earth before the second age even started. A guardian would be a vet on the battelfields and would be able to know this style of fighting with his eyes closed.

In my oppinion it goes like this

Best strength for bipeds inbetween 4.5-7 ft goes uriks then men then dwarves then elves
Best agility for bipeds inbetween 4.5-7 ft goes elves then men then uriks then dwarves
Best armor for bipeds inbetween 4.5-7 ft goes dwarves then elves then men then uriks


But some good news for you is that for some reason the knocking down or tripping of enemy units to the guardians is no longer in the game. Not sure why it was taken out but it appears as though it has been. :(

Edited by ttandchotmail, 11 January 2010 - 02:51 PM.

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#13 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:11 AM

WHAT?! IT WAS REALISTIC!! ISN'T WHAT THIS MOD IS ABOUT?!!?!

*Cough* *Cough*
*Collapses from using too much oxygen yelling*

Edited by Ring o' Fate, 10 January 2010 - 10:12 AM.

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#14 Námo

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:53 AM


Note on the average height of different peoples:


Elves: are generally said to be of the same stature as men; in this context men should be understood as the Dúnedain (descendants of the Númenóreans): 6-6.5 feet


Men:

Dúnedain (late 3rd Age): 6-6.5 feet, see quote below.

The race of the Rohirrim and Northmen (ancestors of the Rohirrim): from six feet to six feet four inches; not higher than the Dúnedain in later days, but broader and heavier build, cf.:

[of the great stature of the Númenóreans]

... two rangar was often called 'man-high', which at thirty-eight inches gives an average height of six feet four inches, but this was at a later date, when the stature of the Dúnedain appears to have decreased ...

It is however said of the great people of the past, that they were more than man-high. Elendil was said to be 'more than man-high by nearly half a ranga; but he was accounted the tallest of all the Númenóreans who escaped the Downfall.

The Rohirrim were generally shorter, for in their far-off ancestry they had been mingled with men of broader and heavier build. Éomer was said to have been tall, of like height with Aragorn; but he with other descendants of Thengel were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic (together in some cases with darker hair) from Morwen, Thengel's wife, a lady of Gondor of high Númenórean descent.

The ranga is said to have been the length of the stride, from rear heel to front toe, of a full-grown man marching swiftly but at ease; a ranga is slightly longer than a yard, approximately thirty-eight inches. :shiftee2:

Men of other races: not higher than 6 feet, probably less in most cases, cf.:

"... the Easterlings or Romenildi, as the Elves named these newcomers, were short and broad, long and strong in the arm; their hair was black, and grew much also upon their face and breast; their skins were swart or sallow, and their eyes brown; yet their countenances were for the most part not uncomely, though some were grim and fierce."
[...]
"... the Swarthy Men first came ... in the East. They were short and broad, long and strong in the arm, growing much hair on face and breast, and their locks were dark, as were their eyes; their skins were swart, yet their countenances were not uncomely for the most part, though some were grim-looking and illfavoured. Their houses were many, and some had liking rather for the Dwarves of the mountains ... rather than for the Elves."


Orcs:

As orcs are corrupted men (see this post), their height must be assumed to be the same as for men; due to various mutations and inbreeding between races, the Orcs might have a wider variations in height than men. Note that Tolkien often used the terms Uruks/Orcs/Goblins in a casual way, without making any clear distinction between these.

Height probably somewhere between 4.5 and 6.5 feet.


Dwarves: 4-5 feet (according to different sources)


Hobbits (Halflings):

The Hobbits measured somewhere between two and four feet in height, depending on which 'tribe' they descended from: The Harfoots were the smallest, and the most numerous. The Fallohides were the tallest, but the least numerous. The Stoors were the most Mannish of their race, some could actually grow beards, and they were the only Hobbits to use footwear.
A giant among Hobbits was Bandobras Took, who stood four feet and five inches tall.


Edited by Námo, 10 January 2010 - 05:49 PM.

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#15 Arveanor

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:52 PM

A giant among Hobbits was Bandobras Took, who stood four feet and five inches tall.


your forgetting all about merry and pippin once they get back to the shire :)

Yes, but they're shorter and have a low center of gravity, which gives them a huge advantage. Watch NFL football.


I do, and I'd like to point out that some of the tallest guys on the field being the lineman stay on their feet pretty well, by spreading their feet and crouching, any soldier worth more than an orc snaga would be capable of doing the same to brace themselves and would have done so.

#16 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 09:12 PM

Do football players wear 20 pound armor? The extra weight could make them unbalanced. Does the tackler rush the guy just as he hits? It increases momentum and power. Is the tackler REALLY strong? If the guy is strong enough, he could just push the guy down.
Add all those together, and dwarves can take down enemies with ease by smashing them. And don't forget, no one knew about how to stop momentum. No one in that Era KNEW ABOUT MOMENTUM. So that sort of destroys the point of your last point.
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#17 Námo

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 08:59 AM


A giant among Hobbits was Bandobras Took, who stood four feet and five inches tall.

your forgetting all about merry and pippin once they get back to the shire :p

Yeah, I forgot those two, but they would hardly be representative for Hobbits, unless 'The Green Dragon' started serving Ent-droughts on a regular basis. :sad2:

Does the tackler rush the guy just as he hits? ... Is the tackler REALLY strong? If the guy is strong enough, he could just push the guy down ... dwarves can take down enemies with ease ...

... I'd like to point out that some of the tallest guys on the field being the lineman stay on their feet pretty well ... any soldier worth more than an orc snaga would be capable of doing the same ...

Are you two guys suggesting that Dwarves and Orcs are playing football, when encountering each other?? :) Well, that really is a hilarious suggestions, but I doubt that it will make it into the mod. :p

... and btw, I think that the debate in this topic is pretty much concluded with this info from ttandc:

But some good news for you is that for some reason the knocking down or tripping of enemy units to the guardians is no longer in the game. Not sure why it was taken out but it appears as though it has been. :(


--------------------

P.S. I don't know much about football, so it would be interesting to see, what the tech-tree would look like, if based on the organization of a football team.
@Ring o'Fate: I sure would love to see your interpretation of a 'Dream Team' of Dwarven football-players.
@Arveanor: It would be appreciated, if you could propose some 'Kick-ass' team of orkish players. (... try not to get run over by the little guys ...)

Let the ball roll ... let's have some fun :p


Edited by Námo, 11 January 2010 - 10:24 AM.

... elen síla lúmenn´ ómentielvo ...
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#18 ttandchotmail

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 02:48 PM

No one in that Era KNEW ABOUT MOMENTUM. So that sort of destroys the point of your last point.



:) :p

I'm sure that anybody out of the stone age and even some that were in the stone age new of momentum even if they couldn't spell it or had a name for it :p

Ever heard of an avalanche? or barrels rolling down a hill? or bob sledding down an embankment? Ever seen waves build up before they crash on the shore? etc etc etc. Actually now that I think about it I don't think a wagon could have been invented at all if the inventor didn't have some knowledge of momentum in his/her head. Because the design of the harness put onto a horse are put on in such a way that they not only help the horse pull the wagon but also don't injure the horse when it needs to slow down. Otherwise the momentum of the wagon would injure the horse which is trying to stop because the rider is pulling the reigns. :sad2:

The same definately would have been said for the inventor of the harness that made those huge platform harnesses for the mumak's :p


WHAT?! IT WAS REALISTIC!! ISN'T WHAT THIS MOD IS ABOUT?!!?!



??? What do you mean?

Edited by ttandchotmail, 11 January 2010 - 11:29 PM.

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#19 Arveanor

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 08:40 PM

or bob sledding down an embankment?

as it stands I consider bob the universal name of all of my motw builders, he will be harshly reprimanded for going awol for snowing

WHAT?! IT WAS REALISTIC!! ISN'T WHAT THIS MOD IS ABOUT?!!?!

???


your absolutely crazy, you must be looking for the vanilla bfme II, or better yet, rotwk.

... and btw, I think that the debate in this topic is pretty much concluded with this info from ttandc:

QUOTE (ttandchotmail @ Jan 10 2010, 06:43 AM) *
But some good news for you is that for some reason the knocking down or tripping of enemy units to the guardians is no longer in the game. Not sure why it was taken out but it appears as though it has been. :(


I saw that, but I coulda sworn I'd seen them use it, maybe I should check... either way, don't let the mods here that first part, they might start killing/moving things.

QUOTE (Arveanor @ Jan 10 2010, 09:52 PM) *
QUOTE (Námo)
A giant among Hobbits was Bandobras Took, who stood four feet and five inches tall.

your forgetting all about merry and pippin once they get back to the shire wink.gif

Yeah, I forgot those two, but they would hardly be representative for Hobbits, unless 'The Green Dragon' started serving Ent-droughts on a regular basis. wink.gif


Once the forest grows back due to the peace that now exists, I'm sure they will :)

@Arveanor: It would be appreciated, if you could propose some 'Kick-ass' team of orkish players. (... try not to get run over by the little guys ...)


Can I use uruk-hai? not all games are night games...

#20 Damrod

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 06:54 AM

Let's take a look at this from a purely scientific view. Dwarves, though being much shorter than humans / elves, weigh about the same. (Human's maybe weighing a little more on average) Now, add between 90 - 100 lbs of armor. Now you have a dwarf warrior who weighs between 250 - 300 lbs. Now, imagine that much wight hurtling against your lower body. (5 foot metal shield leading the way) I can guarantee you are going to be knocked over, if not thrown in the air doing cartwheels. Therefore, dwarf guardian charge makes perfect sense. (If all else fails, a dwarf helmet to the groin would be enough to bring the toughest warrior to his knees)

If you really want to talk about something nonsensical, what about Teoden's glorious charge? If you want unrealistic...




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