29 replies to this topic

[man_of_gondor]

What do you guys think of a calvery unit for the dwarves. You know that beast who pull the demolisher and the battle wagon. Maybe you could make a unit riding on that beasts? I think dwarves is the most non-horses faction in BFME2. The only thing
they have is the battle wagon. Late game you can kill the wagon easily. So maybe dwarven beastriders could be a more late game unit or just a early game unit?

[Arthadan]

Dwarves were well-known for their retence to ride no matter what animal (they will ride ponys when needed as in The Hobbit, of course, but not as war mounts). Tolkien did describe quite a few battles involving Dwarves and they never used cavalry (nor warwagons, which are EA's)

[man_of_gondor]

Yeah, it is maybe not a tolkien character but s.e.e used for the evilmen faction also much units which are not in the books or movies so i think it is not a big problem.

An other idea is to add a men of dale calvery unit?

Edited by man_of_gondor, 25 February 2010 - 09:41 AM.

[Arthadan]

An other idea is to add a men of dale calvery unit?

That would be more feasible from a canon point of view, but I don't know if it fits with the vision od the SEE team.

[man_of_gondor]

I think that it will fit but now waiting for a reply from the S.E.E team

[isledebananas]

I am not really sure about this, but I believe that the Mod Team decided that Dwarves should lack any kind of main cavalry unit. That it would be part of their faction weakness/uniqueness. I don't think its out of the question for Dwarves to use animals, but I think it would be mostly wagons to carry heavy loads. It certainly doesn't fit their style of combat to ride around on beasts.

I guess there could be Beornings who when they change into bears could be kind of a cavalry. However, I don't know if the shape-shifting ability gives the Beornings them all the abilities of a bear(speed/strength). Also, bears while fast aren't meant for prolonged high speeds like a horse.

I did suggest Dale Cavalry as a summon for the Dwarves. I don't think they should become a build-able unit since it would make Dwarves lose their uniqueness. More so it would require a separate building to house the cavalry. Lastly, I don't think Dale had a ready supply of horses in a size that they could use them in battle.

[ttandchotmail]

I agree with isledebananas

The dale units are just the spam units for the dwarven faction. not meant to be any kind of strong force. And Laketown probably didn't have a strong cavalry as not many horses enjoy boat rides Their was an idea bouncing around to give the dwarves a strong anti cavalry unit at one stage but couldn't really think of any. Maybe you guys will have some luck there

[man_of_gondor]

some khazad-dum spearman?

[Arthadan]

And Laketown probably didn't have a strong cavalry as not many horses enjoy boat rides

In the decades after the refounding of Erebor, Dale's power extended further to the east and south of the Mountain and they did have commerce with Dorwinion, so some inland settlements and cavalrymen to protect caravans are not out of place in my opinion.

Their was an idea bouncing around to give the dwarves a strong anti cavalry unit at one stage but couldn't really think of any.

Fully upgraded dwarven pikemen should be a fine anti-cavalry unit.

[Námo]

At the time of the War of the Ring, the realm of Dale extended far south and east:

"In Dale the grandson of Bard the Bowman ruled, Brand son of Bain son of Bard, and he was become a strong king whose realm included Esgaroth, and much land to the south of the great falls." (HoMeVI) The great falls are those described in the Hobbit: "At the southern end [of the Long Lake] the doubled waters [of the Running River and the Forest River] poured out again over high waterfalls and ran away hurriedly to unknown lands."

To the east, the borders of the realm of Dale were along the River Carnen [Redwater] (various references), so King Brand's realm would probably include all the lands surrounding the River Celduin until it's confluence with Carnen - in fact a rather large realm.

The Men of Dale [like the Rohirrim] were descendants of The Northmen, with whom the Dwarves had an alliance lasting about one and a half thousand years at the beginning of the Second Age. The main reason for this alliance was that the Northmen had strong cavalry.

So, there would be no problem in relation to lore to give the Men of Dale some decent cavalry.

--------------------

EDIT:

@ man of Gondor: If you had proposed to a Dwarf that he should ride such a beast, he would probably have responded like this:

Tabriki, Tarraki! Urus, Arrâs!
Askad gabil tashniki ai Kurdu!
Ugrûd ai mênu, Ishkhaqwi ai durugnul!

Edited by Námo, 26 February 2010 - 11:43 AM.

[man_of_gondor]

EDIT:

@ man of Gondor: If you had proposed to a Dwarf that he should ride such a beast, he would probably have responded like this:

Tabriki, Tarraki! Urus, Arrâs!
Askad gabil tashniki ai Kurdu!
Ugrûd ai mênu, Ishkhaqwi ai durugnul!

i really dont want to know what that is in english

[Námo]

Well, that's wise of you ... Beware of them Dwarves!

[Ring o' Fate]

...Well, I DO want to know said text said.
Edit: Probably along the lines of:
"FUCK NO!!"

Edited by Ring o' Fate, 26 February 2010 - 04:24 PM.

[Námo]

Tabriki, Tarraki! Urus, Arrâs! // Cracks, Splits! Fire, Flames!
Askad gabil tashniki ai Kurdu! // A great shadow rip your heart!
Ugrûd ai mênu, Ishkhaqwi ai durugnul! // Death upon you, I'll spit upon your Grave!

... just taken from memory, it's something I compiled like half a year ago. Most of it is neo-Khuzdul, lyrics from the movie (from 'the Balrog' I think) and the last part from one of Gimli's curses.

Edited by Námo, 26 February 2010 - 05:29 PM.

[Taralom]

...Well, I DO want to know said text said.

seconded

If I recall correctly, Riders of Dale are often used in RPG's as a cavalry unit for the dwarves.

[Námo]

The translation IS in the above quote ... [looks like we posted at the same time]

[ttandchotmail]

I stand ( actually I'm sitting in a chair but you get the idea ) corrected Every time I think of Dale I keep thinking of little old laketown from the hobbit. But your right they must have expanded after Smaug was taken care of and as you stated they did. Your knowledge is always appreciated

I'm sure Dale horsemen would be useful but wouldn't it take away the uniqueness of the dwarven faction? Almost every faction has cavalry of some kind. Moira has the wolf riders, isenguard the warg riders, gondor has it's own knights and rohirrum, Rhun has the chariots and I think horse riders as well.

I think mordor is the only other faction without cavalry and they have some great anti cavalry units. Fellbeasts and trolls are always good glue factories for cavalry The Phalanx are the only real anit cavalry the dwarves have.

[isledebananas]

So Dale are descendants of part of the Eotheod? A part that broke off before Eorl the Young? I also agree that the Men of Dale no doubt had a cavalry, but I doubt it was as large as what other regions possessed. Now Isengard's is limited too, but being Evil can produce wargs and riders easily and quickly. Furthermore, it might not have been to the quantity that Gondor had. The only problem to this is the Elves who are in decline and probably didn't leave their poor horses in Middle Earth. What kind of cavalry could they field?

Mainly though I have to agree with ttandchotmail on the gameplay aspect wise. Having a cavalry just doesn't suit the Dwarves style since they aren't about hit and run. They are about enduring and staying the course. They also don't need a stronger anti-cavalry unit. My main reason for saying this is strong anti-cav doesn't make up for the deficit of cavalry. Anyways, I think racially Dwarves should be the strongest against cavalry. They are stocky, heavy, and not to mention clad in sizeable armor which adds to their implacability. They should naturally be more difficult to trample than other races due to weight and low center of gravity.

I think Dwarves need a unit built more for enduring a fight. Basically a tank unit(not literally a tank). A unit that can wade into battle and take lots of prolonged punishment allowing other units to deal out the attacks and to maneuver. I think that fits their style of being stubborn and sticking things through to the end. Cavalry says hit and run, which I believe just isn't Dwarven style.

However, Dale Cavalry could be kept as a summon in case of emergencies. Besides I clearly remember hearing Nazgul say several times he wants Dale to be limited, and not a minifaction. Giving them build-able Cavalry would require some stable structure. I am sure that is how Dwarves wanted Cavalry help only when it was necessary in those tough times, which exactly fits a summon.

[ttandchotmail]

I'll mention it to nazgul. It would make a good summons for the dwarven spellbook. Making the dwarven spellbook that much more diverse from the other factions spells.

[man_of_gondor]

Ok thanks ttandchotmail.