19 replies to this topic

[Sauhron]

Hi,
I read about Carn Dûm from the Lotro Lorebook today and was wondering, what does "Carn Dûm" really mean. In the Lorebook it says like this:

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Carn Dûm is very difficult to translate. Indeed, not only is there no attested meaning of the name, but we can't even be sure of the language it comes from! There are at least four possibilities.

The most obvious relies on the Elvish word car(a)n, meaning 'red'. From this, many have assumed that the entire name is Elvish, and presumably Sindarin. In support of this, the name Angmar, for the land where Carn Dûm stood, seems to be definitely Sindarin. On the other hand, there is no known connection between Carn Dûm and the colour red, and - a serious difficulty - dûm is almost certainly not an Elvish word.

Dûm isn't Elvish, but it is one of the very few words of Dwarvish vocabulary that we know for certain. In Khazad Dûm , it means 'halls, mansions', and this fits neatly for a mountain fortress or citadel. What's more, nearby Mountain Gundabad has Dwarvish associations, so the possibility arises that Carn Dûm might have once been a city of the Dwarves, named in their language. There's no direct evidence to back this up, though, and carn doesn't seem to be a Dwarvish word.

The possibility that Carn Dûm comes from the Black Speech must also be considered, but we simply do not have sufficient information on this language to make a useful judgement.

A final possibility is that Carn Dûm comes from a Mannish language. Tolkien used real languages to represent the Mannish languages in his books, and especially Old English and Old Norse. Carn Dûm doesn't seem to belong to either of these, but there is another candidate: carn dúm are words from Gaelic that can be translated 'mountain fortress'. Did Tolkien intend this, or is it a spectacular coincidence? To accept it as intentional, we'd need to assume an entire new 'Angmarian' language, based on Gaelic, that was wiped out with Angmar by the Gondorians and survived only in this one name. This seems unlikely in the extreme, but where Tolkien is concerned, anything is possible...
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So, could it be that Carn Dûm was a Dwarven city that the Dwarves had long ago abandoned?
If Mount Gundabad was a Dwarven settlement, I think that Carn Dûm was founded originally by the Dwarves, then abandoned, and claimed by the Witch King.

If Carn Dûm was originally built by the dwarves, they probably had great mines there and other stuff, maybe treasures. Crazy idea, but discuss.

[drogoth232]

Interesting... I never thought of it before now. But I think that you may be right.

[Námo]

Carn Dûm - Mountain Fortress of Angmar:
Peak in the far north of the Misty Mountains, the site of the ancient capital of the Witch-king of Angmar.

Encyclopedia of Arda also has a lengthy note of exact same wording as your quote above, so the LOTRO Lorebook undoubtedly copied from Encyclopedia of Arda, as the timestamp on their article says 'Updated 18 December 1999'.

Well, it's not exactly a 'peak', and strictly speaking it's neither in the Misty Mountains, see below.

The Thain's Book is usually very reliable, but the entry for Carn Dûm is not quite correct (btw, the only faulty reference I've found so far)

Carn Dûm:
Stronghold of the Witch-king of Angmar. Carn Dum was located at the far northern end of the Misty Mountains. The Lord of the Nazgul established the realm of Angmar in the north around 1300 and he became known as the Witch-king of Angmar. Carn Dum was his main stronghold, and he dwelled there with many of his evil minions. In 1974, the Witch-king led an attack from Carn Dum against the Dunedain, and he captured their capital of Fornost. The Witch-king was defeated at the Battle of Fornost in 1975 and he fled from the north, abandoning Carn Dum. [...]

Names & Etymology:
Carn Dûm means "red valley" from carn meaning "red" and dûm derived from tûm meaning "deep valley."

Sources:
[...] The History of Middle-earth, vol. VI, The Return of the Shadow: "The Ring Goes South," p. 433 note 13 (meaning of Carn Dum)

To be precise, Carn Dûm is situated in the Western part of "The Mountains of Angmar", as they were called in the 3rd Age. Also, the HoMe/vol.VI/p.433/note13 is actually a reference to the Dimrill Dale outside the Eastern Gate of Khazad-dûm (Moria):

The name was first Carndoom the Red Valley; above was written Carondûn and Doon-Caron, but these were stuck out. Elsewhere on this page is Narodûm = Red Vale; and the name in the text was corrected in red ink to Dimrill-dale: Nanduhiriath (in FR Nanduhirion). On the former application of Dimrill-dale see note 3. At subsequent occurrences the name is Carndoom, Caron-doom, Caron-dûn, Dûn-Caron, and at the last the name was replaced in red ink by Glassmere in Dimrilldale (note 37). Among these forms, all meaning 'Red Valley', I have rather arbitrarily chosen Caron-dûn to stand as the consistent form in the text.

Note: the wording "to stand as the consistent form in the text" does refer to the text in HoMe/VI, i.e an early version of FotR.
For reference the final form of these names were:

[Mirrormere (Common Speech): Nen Cenedril (Sindarin: "Lake Looking-glass"); Kheled-zâram (Khuzdul: "glass pool").]
Dimrill Dale (Common Speech): Nanduhirion (Sindarin); Azanulbizar (Khuzdul).

The Common Speech name Dimrill Dale comes from dim - referring to the deep shadows in the dale - and rill - a small stream or rivulet such as those flowing down the mountains into the dale.

There are two slightly different translations of the Dwarvish name Azanulbizar. In HoME VI it is said to mean "Vale of Dim Streams" from the root ZN meaning "dark, dim," ûl meaning "streams," and bizar meaning "dale, valley." But in a draft manuscript cited in The Reader's Companion, azan is said to be the plural of uzu meaning "dimness, shadow" while ul means "of" and bizar is a plural of the root BZR meaning "small stream." Thus Azanulbizar means "streams of the shadows" and the full name was Duban Azanulbizar where duban means "valley."

The Elvish name Nanduhirion also means "vale of dim streams." The word nan means "valley." The word dú means "night, dimness." The ending hirion comes from sirion meaning "rivers, streams." (The letter s becomes h in the middle of a word.)

Text continues in next post ... [for some unknown reason, I could not post the whole text in one post, probably because of too many quotes etc.??]

EDIT: Found a missing [/url] ... might be the cause, but I'll let it stand as is.

Edited by Námo, 03 June 2010 - 09:00 AM.

[Námo]

... Text continued from above post:


So Tolkien initially assigned the name "Red Valley" to the Dimrill Dale, but later chose a different one ... and did so in a number of cases; this of course means that this etymology can be applied to Carn Dûm.

Of the other possibilities I would definitely rule out the Black Speech; although some Tolkien linguistics do mention an 'Angband dialect' of Orkish, we do not know one single word of this, neither from which language it was originally derived.

This leaves us with three possible etymologies:

Sindarin: although the spelling should probably be different, i.e. Caran-doom, Carandoom, Caran-dûm or Carandûm, this is maybe the most likely solution. Most place-names in Middle-earth was given in Sindarin; the name of the Witch-king's realm 'Angmar' ("Iron-dwelling") is in Sindarin. However, as Sindarin is a very well documented language, the apparent dubious spelling opens up for other interpretations as well.

Khuzdûl: we can rule out, that Carn Dûm was not a settlement of the Dwarves, or only so temporarily in the First Age during the Siege of Angband (rather unlikely). Tolkien's writings on the Dwarves habitations in the northern Misty Mountains (HoMe XII: Late Writings, "On Dwarves and Men") clearly shows this ... although this post is still WIP, the quotes from the essay should be sufficient to prove this.
Although it probably never was a Dwarven settlement, this of course does not rule out, that Carn Dûm is a Khuzdûl name. If so, the unknown word Carn (root C-N) would be a noun in singular, or an adjective.

On the possibility of the name being in some Mannish Tongue: you can safely rule out any forgotten language being 'represented' by Gaelic. It's very likely that Tolkien did know the etymology of Carn Dûm in Gaelic, and has used it as inspiration; that doesn't mean that we can use it without basing such interpretation on some well-known lore ... that is, we'll somehow have to make it fit with some "Northern Mannish (Eriador) dialect" of the Atani Language.

Atani: the root is not known in any of the Atani languages, neither in Adûnaic. However ...

The Northern Atani ... had found that "in ancient days the Naugrim dwelt in many mountains of Middle-earth, and there they met mortal Men (they say) long ere the Eldar knew them." (NE) Thus it came to pass that their earliest language, Atani, showed distinct influences of Khuzdul.

... which means that we maybe are back to Khûzdul again.

So much for now ... I'll have to finish the post on Gundabad, and do some research on "the Evil Men of Angmar" ... I'll come back to this subject later.

Edited by Námo, 03 June 2010 - 08:56 AM.

[_Haldir_]

Hmm very interesting
Could the Sindarin "red" base to the name be a geological description, based on the type of rock there? Similar to the "Redwater", named from the colour of the sediment of the Iron Hills).

The river's name, Carnen, is a direct Elvish equivalent of its Mannish name, the Redwater. Both are very likely a reference to its source in the Iron Hills, since rivers whose sources lie among iron deposits have water with a very distinctive red-orange colour.

The Mountains of Angmar and the Iron Hills were both once part of the Iron Mountains, which could imply that their rock types are similar. If the Mountains of Angmar had similarly high deposits of iron, it might give it a red colour, and a source for the Sindarin interpretation of the name

That still doesn't explain "dum" though .

Do you know of any geological references to mountain ranges Namo?

[Námo]

The Mountains of Angmar and the Iron Hills were both once part of the Iron Mountains, which could imply that their rock types are similar. If the Mountains of Angmar had similarly high deposits of iron, it might give it a red colour, and a source for the Sindarin interpretation of the name

True, they are both remnants of the Iron Mountains ... very good observation, Thanks.

Do you know of any geological references to mountain ranges Namo?

Karen Wynn Fonstad has published a very comprehensive collection (210 pages) of maps in The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth, with (estimated) some two thousand references on different subjects like topography (maps - lots of them in different scale), travel routes, army movements (plus estimates on the sizes of these) in different battles, architecture, landforms, climate, vegetation, population and languages.

She has some very interesting observations concerning the geomorphology of various parts of Middle-earth. Very interesting stuff for mappers.

[_Haldir_]

I've been trying to get a hard copy of that book for some time actually It sounds perfect for mapping.

[Námo]

My copy of the Atlas is the revised 2nd Edition, paperback edition 1994, witch I believe is the latest one. According to the foreword, all the material from the History of Middle-earth are not incorporated in the Atlas, so researching HoMe is still a good idea even if you have the Atlas.

An example of the info you might find there (has some relevance for post #3):

... Red stone was mentioned near both Rivendell and Moria. In the Trollshaws the East Road cut through 'moist walls of red stone on its last leg, descending to the Ford of Bruinen [...] In the western part of the Trollshaws Thorin and company crossed a 'rushing red' river, indicative that it was carrying sediment from the red soil [...] Near Moria the Fellowship scrambled through a barren country of 'red stones' [...] In the mountain range itself, only Caradhras was noted as the 'Redhorn' while the other rock was described as gray. It seems unlikely that Caradhras, the tallest of the Mountains of Moria, would have been composed of the same red rock found in the foothills - especially as the other peaks were obviously of different material. One of two things may have accounted for its color: Its bedrock was a third rock type not present in either the foothills or the surrounding mountains, or its bedrock was not red at all but merely reflected rays of the rising sun.
One additional factor may shred light on the subject - mineralization. The lodes of mithril, an ore found nowhere else, were 'north towards Caradhras, and down to darkness'. Veins of precious ores normally result from repeated igneous intrusions into faults. If intrusions had occurred, extrusions might have also been present; and the Redhorn might have been an isolated peak of igneous rock, such as andesite porphyry, which is dull pink or red.

[Adamin]

Of what nature were the men of Carn Dum? Were they Black Numenoreans, or were they similar to the hillmen of Rhudaur?

For sure no Black Numenoreans. Those decendants of Numenor only lived in Umbar as far as I remember. EA-Games really screwed them up in RotW.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

It is probable that they did live in Carn Dum alongside the Witch King.
Some dwelt in Mordor after all (Mouth of Sauron) and at least 2 of the Nazgul were of Numenorean decent (likely the Witch King himself).
It is even probable that the Black Numenoreans lived in Harad,Rhun and Khand.

[Námo]

As Adamin states, the "evil men of Angmar" were definitely not Black Númenoreans, but most likely akin to the "Hillmen of the North". i.e. descended from Bórrim or other Swarthy Men from Beleriand, fleeing from its destruction at the end of the First Age, cf:

The Third Age saw the further extinction of many of the surviving indigenious cultures and languages. After the foundation of the Realms in Exile, those peoples who in the later part of the Second Age "had passed into the empty lands" of Eriador were successfully "númenorised": they "had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue." (LP) But the losses of the War of the Last Alliance provoked that the North Kingdom would never gain save ground. Though Isildur's son "Valandil took up his abode in Annúminas, ... his folk were diminished, and of the Númenóreans and of the Men of Eriador [i. e. the Middle Men] there remained now too few to people the land or to maintain all the places that Elendil had built; in Dagorlad, and in Mordor, and upon the Gladden Fields many had fallen." (RP)

This massive depopulation was held to be the main reason of Arnor's ultimate splintering "into petty realms and lordships" (RP) that were individually without chance to survive. In the early second millenium, the Hobbits entering Arnor still had the impression that "Men were still numerous there, both Númenóreans and other Men related to the Atani, beside remnants of Men of evil kinds, hostile to the Kings", (DM) but none ever recovered enough to conceal the dramatic underpopulation of the entire kingdom. The númenorisation of the indigenious peoples was the most effective in the Western parts of Arnor that later comprised Arthedain ...

... elsewhere, particularly in Rhúdaur were the Dúnedainic upper class had always been the thinnest, it utterly failed. By all likelihood, Isildur's curse against the Men of Dunharrow had left there a lasting impression of how the Kings used to deal with subjects who refused to follow them into disaster. And the quickly dealt out epithet "Men of evil kinds" did not ease the tension any more than Valandil's relocation closer to his people's problems did. So, when Angmar was founded by the Witch-king there "gathered many evil men" (KR), for it was by not a few considered a serious alternative to the Realm in Exile.

When Rhúdaur was turned into a sovereign kingdom it became immediately exposed to severe pressure by "Hillmen of the North", mysterious people who now for the first time entered the chronicles of the West. They were no doubt descending from the appointed "remnants of Men of evil kinds" who may have been descended from Bórrim or other Swarthy Men from Beleriand. But beyond that, little is known about them.

Some sources state that from the 14th century on, they "build dark forts in the hills" (HE) and that they were "much given to sorcery" (YT). Slowly, they pushed back the Dúnedain of Rhúdaur until the throne was "seized by an evil lord of the Hillmen, who was in secret league with Angmar" (KR). By this time, there were still loyal minorities living beyond the Weather Hills; but after the fatal year of 1409 TA, all of Rhúdaur "was occupied by evil Men subject to Angmar, and the Dúnedain that remained there were slain or fled west." (KR) ... But the Hillmen as well were ultimately doomed, for "all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end." (FR)

source: Lalaith: The Indigenous Population of Eriador and Gondor and their Relationships to the Númenóreans and their Allies (Third Age)

Edited by Námo, 25 November 2011 - 08:25 AM.
formatting: highlighting of text removed

[Námo]

Of what nature were the men of Carn Dum? Were they Black Numenoreans, or were they similar to the hillmen of Rhudaur?

For sure no Black Numenoreans. Those decendants of Numenor only lived in Umbar as far as I remember. EA-Games really screwed them up in RotW.

@Adamin: I support your statement, that the Black Númenoreans only did settle in the South (Harad), but in the Third Age they did only live OUTSIDE the Realm of Umbar, which were ruled most of the the time by Gondorian Kings. I you are interested, I've made a small topic on this question here.

[chillchill]

Thanks for the info.

[Námo]

Some info on the 'Evil Men of Angmar' cut from another topic:

Bórrim (Easterlings of the First Age):

Important Note: No tales of the Bórrim of Eriador in the Seconds Age are recorded by the Númenorean historians, in those of their records that survived the downfall of Númenóre. Only the Elves do have some records in their Annals of Beleriand, from the First Age.

A population of Swarthy Men was found in northern Eriador, akin to the people who in the War of Wrath did serve Morgoth, the Easterling Bórrim:

"Of the people of Bór, it is said, came the most ancient of the Men that dwelt in the north of Eriador in the Second Age and ... after-days." (GA). These must have come from southern Rhovanion where they had met the Entwives, for "many men learned the crafts [of agriculture] of the Entwives and honoured them greatly", (TT) and the Bórrim were then known as skilled "tillers of the earth". (GA)

The Bórrim must have lived in the northeastern part of Eriador, since they apparently did not have any contact with the Númenoreans coming to Eriador; they are not recorded in the Annals of Númenóre, and only indirctly mentioned in relation to the Middle Men, of whom it is said:

They [the Middle Men] were frequently terrorised and subjected by scattered fugitives from Angband who apparently took in larger numbers to the hills of Rhúdaur and the Mountains of Angmar, but still "Men in those parts remain[ed] more or less uncorrupted if ignorant [and] in a simple ‘Homeric’ state of patriarchal and tribal life" (L131). It was thus recorded that "the native people were fairly numerous and warlike, but they were forest-dwellers, scattered communities without central leadership." (GC)

The "scattered fugitives from Angband" were, according to the lore of the Elves, the survivors of the Bórrim who had entered into Beleriand, and who after the War of Wrath fled east into Eriador:

In the Great Battle [the 'War of Wrath', end of First Age] ... others fought for Morgoth. And after the victory of the Lords of the West those of evil Men who were not destroyed fled back into the east, where many of their race were still wandering in the unharvested lands, wild and lawless, refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth. And the evil Men came among them, and cast over them a shadow of fear, and they took them for kings. Then the Valar forsook for a time the Men of Middle-earth who had refused their summons and had taken the friends of Morgoth to be their masters; and Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion ...

According to the lore of the Elves, at the end of First Age two distinct groups of Swarthy Men had formed: the followers of Bór "who were worty folk and tillers of the earth", and those of Ulfang the Black who apparently were hunters and gatherers. This seems to correspond to their pattern of settlement in northern Eriador in the beginning of the Second Age:

• Dissidents of Ulfang the Black [servants of Morgoth]: Angmar, later possible Rhudaur.
• Direct descendants of Bór [free people]: eastern part of northern Eriador, inc. Rhudaur.

Some racial and cultural traits of the Bórrim:

[the Bórrim] became collectively known as Easterlings and Eastrons ... Because of their physical characteristics, they were also referred to as Swarthy Men, for they "were short and broad, long and strong in the arm; their skins were swart or sallow, and their hair was as dark as their eyes. Their houses were many, and some had greater liking for the Dwarves of the mountains than for the Elves." (S) ...

Easterling tongues ... show distinct influences of Khûzdul: "of the tongues of the Easterlings many show kinship with Dwarf-speech rather than with the speeches of the Elves" (NE).

On their women it is said:

Their women were as strong as those of the Halethians, "proud and barbaric". (TG)

The later descendants of these "most ancient" people of Eriador would most likely be the 'Evil Men of Angmar' of the Third Age, and possible also the Hillmen of Rhudaur.

[Námo]

From this info in the above post ...

[the Bórrim] became collectively known as Easterlings and Eastrons ...

Easterling tongues ... show distinct influences of Khûzdul: "of the tongues of the Easterlings many show kinship with Dwarf-speech rather than with the speeches of the Elves" (NE).

... we can conclude, that the element 'Dûm' in Carn Dûm must relate to Khuzdul, as a loan-word from this language.

No plausible explanation for the first part of the name, either in Khuzdul or the fragment that we have of ancient Mannish tongues. Thus what we can extract of etymology is only this:

dûm, "excavations, halls, mansions", either a true plural or a collective singular (in Khazad-dûm, q.v.)

Carn Dûm was probably a mountain fortress, partly excavated into the Mountains of Angmar.

[ElessartheHigh]

Just a quick question : was Carn Dûm really abandonned by late Third Age ? I wonder if it would have been possible some orcs remain in the fortress , because Carn Dûm wasn't destroyed . So would it be possible the fortress was still inhabited in the War of the Ring ?

[Námo]

It is indeed possible, or rather likely, that the fortress was still inhabited in the War of the Ring.

The lore is a bit ambiguous on this, but I believe that Angmar was at least inhabited by Orcs, and other foul beings, and that maybe also a remnant of the Evil Men still did dwell there.

[Námo]

Above post was just my gut-feeling on issue, so I've checked the lore ... it's a bit ambiguous, and scattered, and I believe that's why most people consider Angmar a dead realm after the escape of the Witch-king.

The most detailed accounts are to be found in the appendices to RotK, especially Appendix A,I (the history of Arnor and Gondor) with info related to both the Northern and the Southern Kingdoms.

In the year 1973 ...

... Eärnur came to the Grey Havens ... Then Cirdan summoned all that would come to him, from Lindon or Arnor, and when all was ready the host crossed the Lune and marched north to challenge the Witch-king of Angmar. He was now dwelling, it is said, in Fornost, which he had filled with evil folk, usurping the house and the rule of the Kings. In his pride he did not await the onset of his enemies in his stronghold, but went out to meet them, thinking to sweep them, as others before, into the Lune.

But the host of the West came down on him out of the Hills of Evendim, and there was a great battle on the plain between Nenuniel and the North Downs. The forces of Angmar were already giving way and retreating towards Fornost when the main body of the horsemen that had passed round the hills came down from the north and scattered them in a great rout. Then the Witch-king, with all that he could gather from the wreck, fled northwards, seeking his own land of Angmar. Before he could gain the shelter of Carn Dûm the cavalry of Gondor overtook him with Eänur riding at their head. At the same time a force under Glorfindel the Elf-lord came up out of Rivendell. Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc remained west of the Mountains.

The phrase "so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc remained west of the Mountains" should be read as:

"so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc [of the Witch-king's army] remained west of the Mountains"

There are several reasons for adapting this interpretation:

• The Witch-king had taken Fornost less than a year before, and could not have relocated all the subjects of Angmar there yet.
  
• The geography is important: the battle was close to Fornost, and the wreck of the Witch-king's army would not have escaped far in the direction of Carn Dûm before they were destroyed, cf. the distances between Fornost and Carn Dûm:
  
• Carn Dûm was not attacked by the host of the West, not at this time, nor ever.
  
  

  

• When preparing the third volume [RotK] for printing, Tolkien was under extreme stress because of the amount of lore that he wanted added:
  
  

  The first volume of The Lord of the Rings was published in the summer of 1954, and the second volume in the autumn; at that time the type for the text of the third volume had already been set, but the third volume could not be printed until the appendices arrived ...
  
  Tolkien had at one time planned to fill an entire 'specialist volume' with details of the history and linguistics of his mythological peoples, and he had amassed a great deal of notes on these topics. However, he found the task maddeningly difficult, as he had to compress everything, because the publishers could only give him a short space at the end of the book. 'I am stumped.' Tolkien wrote in October. 'Indeed in a panic.' ...
  
  ... so it was not until almost a year after the publication of The two Towers, that The Return of the King reached the bookshops. A note on the last page apologized for the absence of the promised index.
  
  In that process, a lot of drafts were omitted, or stories postponed to be written at a later time, or simply lost ... some did survive, and has later been published by Christopher Tolkien ...
  

• Most important: Tolkiens writings, according to his own perception of them, were conceived as 'Annals of *realm/people*', i.e the history of the First Age was 'Annals of Aman' and 'Annals of Beleriand' written by Elves; the history of the Third Age was the 'Annals of Gondor' written by Gondorian historians (incl. Pippin). The Gondorians were known to be very ethnocentric, so to claim that "not a man nor an orc remained west of the Mountains" could be an exagerated statement by a Gondorian historian too proud of his own people.

Another version [in History of Middle-earth vol. XII] is a little more moderate, in just stating that:

T.A. 1975: The Witch-king is overthrown and his realm destroyed.

Well, "his realm destroyed" does not exatly mean, that the totality of the people of that realm are being destroyed, or ... ??

The Witch-king's army was destroyed, but he had achieved his aim of destroying the Northern Kingdom, and he had another appointment ... to capture Minas Ithil, which he and the other Nazgûl did achieved a quarter of a century later ... and there he challenged Eänur, who took up the challenge and rode alone to Minas Morgul, as it was then renamed. Eänur never returned, and thus ended the line of Kings in Gondor.

But destroying the realm of Angmar? As said, that realm was never attacked, and in fact it stretched on the other sides of the mountains too:

It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its land lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures.

"Its land lay on both sides of the Mountains" would surely be to the north of the old mountain-range stretching from Mt. Gundabad to the Northwest, which was in fact a remnant of the Iron Mountains of old, the sole domain of Morgoth, and home of those fell creatures that did flee from the ruin of Angband.

"... on both sides of the Mountains" could also be the upper vales of Anduin, passing through Gundabad, 'The tunneled Mountain' in the tongue of the Dwarves, and here at last we find 'the smoking gun' (if such an expression can be used in relation to Middle-earth) proving the continued existence of the Evil Men of Angmar:

The forefathers of Eorl ... delighted in horses and in all feats of horsemanship, but there were many men in the middle vales of Anduin in those days, and moreover the shadow of Dol Guldur was lengthening; when therefore they heard of the overthrow of the Witchking, they sought more room in the North, and drove away the remnants of the people of Angmar on the east side of the Mountains.

To where could those "remnants of the people of Angmar" escape? ... to the west side of the Mountains, where they had their home for more than five thousand years!

This was many centuries before Third Age 2510 [when The Rohirrim relocated to Calenardhon], and at that time Mt. Gundabad was held by Orcs [until T.A. 2793]. We must assume that the passage from East to West through Gundabad was open to these Evil Men, as they apparently had the command over the Orcs since the middle of Second Age, cf.:

The Second Age had reached only the middle of its course (c. Second Age 1695) when ... the Orks reinforcexaggerateded and coexactlymmanded by servants of Sauron invaded the mountains again. Gundabad was re-taken, the Ered Mithrin infested ...

The "servants of Sauron" would most likely be the Kings of the Evil Men, in the history the only people who had been servants of Morgoth, as well as of his Lieutenant Sauron.

So, as for the question:

... was Carn Dûm really abandonned by late Third Age? I wonder if it would have been possible some orcs remain in the fortress ... would it be possible the fortress was still inhabited in the War of the Ring?

The answer is definitely YES: Evil Men, Orcs and other foul creatures; the whole lot of Morgoths evil brood ... not only as a possibility, but as reality, they just never entered the history of the Third Age again ... a fate they share with other peoples as well.

Edited by Námo, 26 November 2011 - 09:22 PM.

[OperationRenegade]

I would say it is most likely intented to be from Irish (gaelic), if this was transcribed into a Angmarian/ Black numenoreans/ Rhudaur wildmen language it would seem fitting for it to be used by wildmen of the north, although it's most likely to been created by the Witch-King himself or black numenoreans as I'd assume MOST of the northern wildmen would have been illiterate. But why didn't this speech survive along with the Corsairs (decendents of the black numenoreans), (literate) dunlendings & orcs?