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SEE Monsters - Eagles, Ents, Giants, etc...


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#1 Nazgûl

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:24 PM

Something I've never liked in SEE, despite the awesome trimming we did with falling anims/deaths instead of the stupid *kapaow* death, is how the Eagles came pretty soon in game and wreck havoc for my poor Orcs :thumbsupsmiley: So for the next beta we left them as summons via the Spell Book only to assure they only enter in late game.

We should, for the same reasons, perhaps make Ents the same way - summons only, as they are VERY powerful. Even if that means we'd have to create a new siege unit for the elven faction. This would also apply to Moria's awesome Stone Giants. I find them a tad too powerful to be normal recruitable units. That would mean we'd have to make a new siege unit for goblins as well (maybe the Troll Catapult from RotWK?). Lots of work, and not for this beta... but I just wanted to vent my thoughts for future versions =)

Thoughts on this?

Edited by Nazgûl, 05 November 2010 - 03:27 PM.

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#2 Prince of the Dark Forest

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:31 PM

I prefer to stick to the lore as much as possible. Whilst I welcome the idea of having this uber powerful units as summons (definately yes on the giants, eagles and Ents), I don't know how 'realistic' alternative siege for Elves and Goblins would be...

I don't want a high-tech catapult for Goblins... But maybe something crude and weak-looking like the Dol Guldor trebuchets...

For elves, how about magic instead of siege? Like other mods have done, why not replace elven siege with ranged magic wielders? I know this too doesn't follow lore that closely, but I've never heard any mention of siege warfare (as in trebuchets, catapults , ballistas etc.), for elves in Middle Earth...

Weaker units, such as Spiderlings, Cave Trolls and Wargs should, of course, still be used as units.
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#3 Gfire

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:36 PM

Goblins do have the ability to climp over walls with many units so it would be okay if their siege was lacking I think. Perhaps just a cheap battering ram and/or catapult (the troll catapult is nice and crude.)

And if their was an easter egg where the catapult could throw goblins, I'd be all for that. Although, perhaps a dwarf catapult would be better.
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#4 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:37 PM

No magic! It's so nonlore.

Edited by Ridder Blauw, 05 November 2010 - 03:37 PM.


#5 Gfire

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:39 PM

If elves never used siege weapons, or magic, then how do they do so well in war in the films and books? I mean, they did destroy Dol Guldur, they must have used something. If elves can destroy a fortress with their arrows in the lore, then I guess it would be fine to in SEE. So there has to be an option.
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#6 Mathijs

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:47 PM

I'm pretty sure Elves were smart enough to build a catapult or a ballista and certainly did so when the need arose. Magic is stupid.

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#7 Nazgûl

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:19 PM

The only magic I know of is when Galadriel tore down the fortress of Dol Guldur... but I don't think we could use her as a stand alone siege unit :thumbsupsmiley: So I'd say I agree... elves were probably smart enough to build a siege machine if needed. I think a Ballsia should fit the best, with some kind of nice elvish design, using the Isengard animations.

Edited by Nazgûl, 05 November 2010 - 04:20 PM.

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#8 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:44 PM

Maybe it should be better just to increase Ents' and Giaints' build time or build cost or to increase the build time or the build cost of the upgaide for fissure/entmut or to make them only miele fighers(make them able to throw rocks only once in a great time) or make goblins able to throw torches.And dont forget about such a great building-brakers as trols.Why you dont like elvish magic as a siege weapon.Galadriel+Arwen is a great power

#9 isledebananas

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:21 PM

Yes Yes Yes I completely agree with this mostly. Neither Gondor, Rohan, nor Erebor should have buildable eagles. They already have good siege to deal with most of the extra reasons Eagles are used for. Their main use should be against Nazgul's who can get a bit pesky in larger numbers. The only problem comes with Grond which can be devastating if you don't have enough stuff and an extra eagle can be a help with that(personally I don't like Grond at all its OP). This becomes even more difficult for Elves but they should have an Ent summon as well.

In the Powers Suggestions Thread I suggested Eagles summons for all Good Factions. Also, only one build able Eagle Gwahir for Elves as they lacked traditional siege for some of the more dangerous situations ala Grond. I also thought for them when the Eagle Summon Power is purchased and they have a Eagle's Nest built then it will have two slave Eagles who patrol around the size of the AI Base. This is again for problems that require large amounts of damage ala Grond. That way they would be no offensive threat, but would cover the problem of a huge nuisance which the Elves have no easy way of dealing with sans Spell Spam.

In the Powers I also suggested Ents for Elves and Rohan. A 5 Ent + Treebeard Summon for Rohan and a 4 Ent + Quickbeam for Elves. For Elves I thought it should be a bit different with Quickbeam. Lorewise he is the one with his mind made up and wanting to fight. Elves are the closest allies to which his people are in speaking terms. Once the Ents Power is purchased Quickbeam will auto-spawn out of the oldest Fortress. He will be like a regular hero save that when he dies he can't be bought back, but only comes back after a specific large amount of time as long as you possess a Fortress. Why a Ent Hero for Elves? Again its for the problem with siege that the Elves have especially against opponents with heavy entrenched siege themselves. It would make him useful, but not overpowered in that you would usually want him at home to protect your base from such problems. Furthermore both Ents Powers would be farther to the end of the Powers Tree.

The Giants I also suggested as a Power. It also allows the scrapping of the Toilet Fissure as a build able structure. It summons the Fissure(perhaps reskinned?) from which 4-6 slave Giants emerge. They are lifetime and attack everything in the area even your own units. Lore-wise they were neutral and threw stones at whoever got close. The Giants would self heal when not in combat and after being killed take sometime to respawn. The Giants will continually respawn until the Fissure is destroyed, which would prevent respawn but any living Giants would still need killing. This might seem weak since you can't control them, but the fact that they respawn and you don't have to waste time microing them is a big advantage. Simply put them in an area you don't want to be easily attacked from and they should hold off most attacks and even larger ones for some time. Also, while attacking the front of an enemy base one could summon them to the back causing all sorts of havoc.

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Now the problem is two factions don't have very good siege. Moria and Lorien will be out their main form of siege attack.

For Moria I don't think something like the Troll stone throwers is fitting with the faction. Its basically a different looking catapult. Moria's biggest strength is that they are overall the most mobile faction and I think their siege should go along with that. I think one siege should be trolls built out of some troll cage or troll cave. The trolls should have that big spear thing that troll in Balin's Tomb tried to skewer Frodo with. It could do bonus damage against buildings and lots of AoE attack when used against units. The second should be the Siege Bow . A ranged siege which is far more maneuverable than the catapults and can be built in larger numbers due to smaller CP cost. Another advantage it could have is that it fires faster and more accurately than regular siege, but does lower damage. I think this would also solve some of Moria's problems dealing with the Good Factions stronger units and heroes which could often level most of their army before much damage could be done to them. Especially with Giants gone that problem would start to get worse for Moria since they don't have many tank units.

Elves I think should have something completely different all together. I have heard from some people on the forum that think siege should be their weakness and I agree. Their powerful archers would make traditional siege far too easy. Anytime they come around with some siege and lots of archers the best counter would be spell spam for Evil factions. Getting units close is just so difficult with all the firepower they usually boast. Now realistically they should be able to build siege machines, but is that really their style to make machines? Second they only had a few successful sieges. In the first age these involved Human, Dwarf, and Ent allies. The only major siege success required the help of the Valar in the first age. The main Sieges in the Second Age required either the help of the Numenor or Arnor/Gondor. In the Third Age they have on siege against Dol Guldur which was felled by Galadriel's powers.

Elves I think should stick to magic. Now I know people don't like this idea, but Elves have always been known to have some secret powers/abilities what have you. I'm not talking about something serious here like spell book powers or hero powers. Something more subtle and simple. A unit that empowers other units around it to give bonus damage against buildings and perhaps even fire damage. They would simply cast a spell that during the duration gives a boost to all surrounding units. I think that is a fairly simple magic similar to how Gandalf easily heated Aragorn's blade in the movies. It would be a battalion with a few 4-5(including BC) units. I also think they should have healing powers as well perhaps similar to mobile wells or a over time spell like Athelas. I think this would allow Elves to have a very unique siege and deal with the problem of their overwhelming strength by giving them this one weakness. Unlike other factions they won't be able to sit back bombing away while enemy units rush in to stop them only to get mowed down by strong archers. They would now have to be very aggressive about their siege and rush into the attack. I think this fits their lore as well since they mostly liked to sit back in their hidden cities and only went on the attack with allies. For more traditional siege I think Galadriel should mostly deal with that I had some suggestions for her here.

#10 Nazgûl

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:41 PM

I'll be back in about 1 month when I have read all of that :thumbsupsmiley:

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#11 Sauron's eyes and ears

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 07:34 PM

I think that with eagls, just 3 heros 1 costing 5000 the 2nd costing 7500 and a 3rd costiong 10000, that would make them a late game unit.
For mountain giants I came up with this solution: a realy expensive strucrure that is bigger than the fortress that is the only building that you can get them from (also 15 cost power).
Ents, same as mountain giants.

But I agree with magic siege for elves, but not isledebananas idea, just an elf with a staff and in a robe that can fire a clear orb that does the same damege as catapults and can get an upgrade that makes the orb glow blue so it does the same damege as fire sones and creates a shokwave that blasts back units but does no exra damege, like what silverthorn arorws does insted of fire arorws. An elvan ballista could work to...

As for goblins Moria, their wall climb should do fine

Edited by Sauron's eyes and ears, 11 October 2011 - 07:22 PM.

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#12 Nazgûl

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 12:31 PM

Since I'm only working on Moria so far I can tell you that Giants will be Spell Book only.

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#13 Arthadan

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 08:49 PM

I fully agree the idea of delaying the "heavy siege" units. My thoughts:

GOBLINS.
Crude battering-ram.
They already have "catapults" (stone-throwing Trolls). Maybe adding the possibility of building "siege trolls" which make more damage to buildings when throwing boulders.
Make Trolls able to attack walls in close combat, just as they do with buildings (I'm not sure if they already can).

ELVES.
In the late Third Age Elves are tired to fight, so they use stealth rather than sheer force. What about making most Elven units able to climb walls with ropes? No new units, just new anims. Heck, they could even open a wall door from the inside (if it's possible to code).I think it can be an elegant solution for Elven siege.
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#14 Ridder Blauw

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 05:31 AM

I fully agree the idea of delaying the "heavy siege" units. My thoughts:

GOBLINS.
Crude battering-ram.
They already have "catapults" (stone-throwing Trolls). Maybe adding the possibility of building "siege trolls" which make more damage to buildings when throwing boulders.
Make Trolls able to attack walls in close combat, just as they do with buildings (I'm not sure if they already can).

Perhaps, but I recall the goblins to open the gate in moria with even a single battering ram... perhaps it was a crude gate? Or have the goblins found a way to easily break them open? Troll will be able to attack structures most likely yes, although I am not sure how effective a cave troll would be against such masonary as found in Erebor and Gondor.

On a side note, I find attacking forts and other structures with battering rams a little odd, I'll have to look up on if it's even possible in RL.

I may make a list of ALL viable "siege" units planned/in SEE when I find the time later today.

ELVES.
In the late Third Age Elves are tired to fight, so they use stealth rather than sheer force. What about making most Elven units able to climb walls with ropes? No new units, just new anims. Heck, they could even open a wall door from the inside (if it's possible to code).I think it can be an elegant solution for Elven siege.


No, by far, no, Siege is a very important part of SEE as we will be having the normal units do almost NO damage to structures, simply removing it for one faction would cause an imbalance dooming you for the rest of the game.

Edited by Ridder Blauw, 04 October 2011 - 05:34 AM.


#15 Nazgûl

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 10:22 AM

Yeah and "just new anims" is like saying "just build another Twin Tower"... :crazed: New anims are not likely to ever be something for SEE, unless they are new as in not used by EA but created by EA (as in motion captured). I'm not gonna spoil the realistic feeling of SEE by blending motion capture anims with home made attempts that VERY few modders can do.

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