21 replies to this topic

[Námo]

The origin of Orcs:

From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting:

Tolkien's latest writings on the issue (found in Texts VIII-X of the "Myths Transformed" section in Morgoth's Ring) show him considering many possible origins: corrupted Elves, corrupted Men, very minor Maiar (a small number of original Orcish leaders only), or even beasts given fragments of Morgoth's own will so they would have some measure of independence. Some combination of these origins seems most likely from the texts, though the last of them was probably rejected.

All of these suggested origins still support the notion that Orcs reproduced in the same manner as other races (and therefore that there were female Orcs). This is explicitly discussed in Text X of "Myths Transformed", which states that

Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning.

The role of female Orcs in their society is not at all clear.

On the question of the origin of Orcs, Tolkien did take a final decision about 1959-60, in his latest writings; in The Silmarillion as published we still find the assumption, that Orcs might be corrupted Elves, but Tolkien very clearly rejected this as an impossible idea in some later writings.

The lore I refer to is the essay Origin of Orcs which exist as a sort of appendix to a major work entitled Essekenta Eldarinwa or Quendi and Eldar, which Christopher Tolkien describes thus: "with the appendices Quendi and Eldar runs to nearly fifty closely typed pages, and being a highly finished and lucid work is of the utmost interest".

The essay Origin of Orcs can be found in History of Middle-earth Vol. X: Myths transformed, section X

from Myths transformed, section X: Orcs:

We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first maybe so much for the provision of servants or the infantery of his wars of destruction, as for the the defilement of the Children [of Iluvatar] and the blasphemeous mockery of the designs of Eru. The details of this accomplishment of his wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subleties of Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men.

When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague, to the torment of all who dwelt there, Elves or Men or Dwarves.

It was Sauron, also, who secretly repaired Angband for the help of his Master when he returned; and there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of Orcs before Melkor came back at last, as Morgoth the Black Enemy, and send them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair. And though Angband has fallen and Morgoth is removed, still they come forth from the lightless places in the darkness of their hearts, and the earth is withered under their pitiless feet.

in a note immediately following above text Christopher Tolkien writes:

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question [on the origin of Orcs]: Orcs were bred from Men, and if "the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought" it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.

If normal Orcs would have been corrupted Elves, then they would have been 'immortal' like those; this would indeed be contrary to the gist of Tolkien's Legendarium, and in fact contradicting a lot of lore.


The relationship between Orcs and Goblins:

From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting

The words "Orc" and "Goblin" are essentially identical in meaning, but Tolkien's inconsistent usage in The Hobbit has led to considerable confusion. Still, a clear answer comes from Tolkien's introductory note to later editions of that book, which explains that

Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures.

Some have taken this and other comments in The Hobbit (such as the reference to "the big ones, the orcs of the mountains" near the end of "Riddles in the Dark") to mean that "Goblins" were smaller and "Orcs" larger. However, Tolkien did not generally make this distinction. For instance, the name Orcrist is translated "Goblin-cleaver" in all editions of The Hobbit. Another clear example comes from the chapter "The Riders of Rohan" in LotR, when the companions reach the edge of Fangorn:

Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen.

The white badge makes it all but certain that this was one of the large Uruk-hai. In fact, it seems plausible that this was the head of Ugluk himself, slain after a climactic fight sword to sword with Eomer at the end of the battle. If one of the Uruk-hai could be called a goblin, any Orc could.

Edited by Námo, 05 March 2011 - 01:16 PM.

[Námo]

The origin of Saruman's Uruk-hai:

From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting

Whatever the details of their origins, all evidence indicates that like all Orcs, Saruman's Uruk-hai were bred "naturally" by mating humanoid creatures who then bore live young. The real questions are whether it was Sauron or Saruman who planned that breeding, and what stock they were bred from.

It is important that the meaning of "Uruk-hai" be clear from the start. Appendix F says that "the word uruk of the Black Speech... was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard." As for the plural, the index of Unfinished Tales says that "Uruks" is an "Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech". A similar translation is provided in Parma Eldalamberon 17 within Tolkien's explanatory note for the first appearance of the Ring verse:

The debased form of the B. S. which survived in the Third Age only in the Dark Tower is seen in a few names (as Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk')

In addition to the translation, this shows that the term "Uruk-hai" was used in both Isengard and Mordor. It is not clear whether, at the end of the Third Age, the term "Uruk" referred to all "great soldier-orcs" or to a specific breed of them.

According to Appendix A, the race of Uruks first appeared out of Mordor in the last years of Steward Denethor I, before TA 2475. If "Uruk" is the name of a specific Orc breed, then this proves that Saruman had no hand in their creation. However, by the time of LotR there is some evidence that several breeds had that name: the companies of Ugluk, Shagrat, and Gorbag were all Uruks, and they differed at least slightly in size and appearance (for example, Sam observed that Gorbag's troop's gear was "a better fit" than Shagrat's). Still, this evidence is not conclusive; it seems that we cannot determine the meaning of the word Uruk itself without answering the larger question.

As for Saruman, it is well established that he conducted a breeding program crossing Orcs (quite possibly Uruks) with humans. Immediately following the quotation from Morgoth's Ring cited in question III.B.14 (Text X of "Myths Transformed") which describes Morgoth's technique of mating Orcs with Men, Tolkien says that

There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.

While this is the only explicit statement of Saruman's deeds, there are numerous comments in LotR about Orclike Men and Manlike Orcs associated with Isengard. The most direct comments come from the chapter "Treebeard", where Treebeard ponders Saruman's Orcs:

For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun, but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!

The close agreement between Treebeard's thoughts here and the explicit statement in Morgoth's Ring makes it seem very likely that this was Tolkien's intent.

The remaining question is whether Saruman's Uruk-hai were the "Men-orcs" from his breeding program. This seems likely, but it is difficult to find solid proof. (Treebeard's comments about the Isengarders' tolerance of sunlight may support this view, but it is hard to prove that Uruks of Mordor lacked that tolerance.)

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Saruman would have likely have had multiple types.
The Uruk Hai may be the later versions with the Orc-Men type being used as experiments.
Like the Ruffians of the Shire and the Squinty eyed Southerner.

The Uruk Hai seemed to have absolute loyalty to Saruman but the Southerner didn't.
Since he agreed to work for the Witch King.
Although an Uruk Hai may have done the same in that situation.
I believe he also used Orc-Men and Dunlendings as his watch.

Maybe he was trying to breed out the "Orcness" out of orcs.
He didn't trust Orcs but he did trust his Uruk Hai.

I'd imagine the breeding of the original Uruks would have been done along side that of the Olog Hai since they seem to have similar qualities.

The Uruks of Morgul did attack at day time though with the sun mostly blocked out.
They still fought after the sun had dissipated the clouds.
Perhaps the Morgul Uruks had some resiliency to the sun.

[Námo]

... the Squinty eyed Southerner.

The Uruk Hai seemed to have absolute loyalty to Saruman but the Southerner didn't.
Since he agreed to work for the Witch King.

Oh, but that wasn't the squint-eyed southerner's fault; there was a very powerful reason for that:

from Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring:

This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. ... The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter ... he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent him on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn.

Edited by Námo, 04 March 2011 - 10:18 AM.

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

I'm not blaming the guy.
Most people would have done it too,not me though I would have punched the Witch King in his invisible face.

[Námo]

On Boldogs:

There were some evil spirits sometimes taking the form of great Orcs: the Boldogs. They were not Orcs, but Spirits taking the shape of Orcs, cf.:

from History of Middle-earth X: Origin of Orcs

Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible form. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.⁴ Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.*

⁴ ... 'But always among them [Orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes' ...

* [footnote to the text] Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.

[Námo]

Some notes on the linguistic origins of 'Orcs'

• The Quenya version:
  
  [quote]
  ORC (goblin) urco (stem urcu-, pl. urqui) or orco (pl. orqui or orcor, in the former case probably with stem *orcu- throughout). LT1:264 has orc, but word-final rc does not occur in LotR-style Quenya. Here the gloss is "monster, demon". Cf. WJ:390: "In the lore of the Blessed Realm the Q urko naturally seldom occurs, except in tales of the ancient days and the March, and then is vague in meaning, referring to anything that caused fear to the Elves, any dubious shape or shadow, or prowling creature." –ÓROK, LT1:264, WJ:390
  [/quote]
  Source: Ardalambion Quettaparma Quenyanna
  
• The quenya word referred to originates from "tales of the ancient days and the March" - the ancient days refers to the Elves in the Blessed Realm (Valinor), i.e. from a time where the Elves had not yet encountered Morgoth in Angband; thus the word does NOT refer specifically to what was later to be associated with the word "Orc", at a different time and in a different language.
  
• Quenya was only spoken in Valinor. The Noldor in exile in Middle-earth kept Quenya only as a language of lore, and otherwise adopted Sindarin.
  
• The original Quenya word had a rather vague meaning, which was reflected in Sindarin, the language of the Elves of Beleriand. Furthermore, Sindarin has some other words more specifically referring to [various kinds of?] 'Orcs':
  
  [quote]
  ORC orch (pl. yrch, archaic †yrchy, coll. pl. orchoth). (RGEO:66, Names:171, Letters:178, MR:195; WJ:390-91, VT46:7). Other terms: 1) urug (monster, bogey), pl. yryg, 2) glamog (i ’lamog), pl. glemyg (in glemyg) (WJ:391), 3) ”HOST OF TUMULT” Glamhoth (a term for Orcs, also translated ”Yelling-horde”). (UT:54, MR:109, 195; WJ.391) Compare A BODY OF ORCS glam (i ’lam) (din, uproar, tumult, confused yelling of beasts; shouting, confused noise), pl. glaim (in glaim), coll. pl. glammath.[/quote]
  Source: Ardalambion Parviphith Edhellen - Sindarin Wordlist
  
• Of the Sindarin terms, Sauron probably borrowed the urug ['monster'] (see above) for his Black Speech; the only other known word in BS is snaga ['slave'] (might be 'Debased Black Speech'?):
  
  [quote]
  snaga "slave" (May be DBS.) Used of lesser breeds of Orcs (WJ:390).
  [...]
  uruk a great variety of Orc. According to WJ:390, Sauron probably borrowed this word "from the Elvish tongues of earlier times".
  [/quote]
  Source: Ardalambion Orkish and the Black Speech
  
• Important: From the way Tolkien uses the word 'Orc', 'Orcs' etc. using a word from Old English, it is clear that this is 'representing' the Common Speech (Westron) of northwestern Middle-earth. Westron is derived from the Old Adûnaic of the Numenoreans settling in the area around Pelargir, but we don't have enough Adûnaic vocabulary to trace the etymology of 'Orc' in Common Speech.
  
• In addition to linguistic sources, we have various notes by professor Tolkien:
  
  [quote]
  Orcs:
  This spelling was taken from Old English. The word seemed, in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But the Old English orc in meaning - as far as that is known - is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in a more organized linguistic situation, must have been a Common Speech form of a word or group of similar words should be ork. If only because of spelling difficulties in modern English: an adjective orc + ish becomes necessary, and orcish will not do. In any future publication I shall use ork.
  [/quote]
  [quote]
  Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orcs only occurs once, I think) ...
  [/quote]
  [quotes from HoMe X, Myths Transformed, and Tolkien Letters #144]

[Námo]

Orcs/Uruks and sunlight:

According to Treebeard:

It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun, but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.

According to the Tolkien Bestiary by David Day:

On Orcs:

... they were fearful of light, for it weakened and burned them. Their eyes were night seeing, and they were dwellers of foul pits and tunnels.

On Uruks:

Uruk-hai were Orcs grown to the height of Men, yet straight-limped and strong. Though they were truly Orcs - black-skinned, black-blooded, lynx-eyed, fanged and claw-handed - Uruk-hai did not languish in sunlight and did not fear it at all.

They were as tall as Men with all the evil traits of Orcs, yet they were stronger and unafraid of light.

[Ganon]

So Saruman's Uruks didn't fear daylight, but they still hated it out of instinct basically?

[Námo]

That's what Treebeard said. I guess we can trust his wisdom.

[Námo]

Question from a SEE forum:

Do orcs take 20 years to become "full grown" or was their growth process accelerated? And if so, by how much? Always wondered about that.

Great question. I never thought of that before, but if Orcs breed like Men (see above) ... well, then there should be orc-babies and orc-kids too!

The only reference I can find, is that Tolkien once used the expression "sons of Orcs" (HoMe II, 165).

My guess would be, that although Orcs originates from Men, they most likely matures somewhat faster, and that being raised in a competitive or even hostile environment necessitates an accelerated growth process.

[Adamin]

There is in fact one very clear indication concerning Orc-offsprings in the Hobbit.

When Gollum returned to his island after Bilbo defeated him in their battle of riddles, he thought about how he sometimes strangled some stray orcs while wearing the Ring. He also mentioned that he even caught a young Orc only a couple hours ago.

Sorry, I don't have the original line in english.

Edited by Adamin, 23 October 2011 - 10:16 PM.

[Námo]

Only a few hours ago he ... caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked!

Excellent, Adamin, thanks a lot.

[Rob38]

Ah, thanks for addressing my question. They must grow up relatively quickly. It did not take much time for Saruman to breed a large army of uruk-hai. Do we know when Saruman started breeding his own orcs?

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Well when a Mummy Orc and Daddy Orc love each other very much....


I wonder where he got his first Orcs were they loaners from Mordor or did he recruit them from the Misty Mountains?
He must have offered some kind of reward since he couldn't hold them in Thralldom like Sauron.

[Námo]

It did not take much time for Saruman to breed a large army of uruk-hai. Do we know when Saruman started breeding his own orcs?

Tough question, but very interesting. For the sake of the good people besieged at Helm's Deep I'll try to outline some possible answers, but I'm afraid those will only be general clues, and nowhere near anything specific.

Saruman's army was composed of many different sorts of orcs (and a lot of wild men from Dunland): orc-men, half-orcs, goblins, orcs and uruks. Although they did themselves use the word "Uruk-hai" as a sort of collective plural, probably most of them were not "uruks".

I believe, that the origins of Saruman's army goes back hundreds of years ... the first traces of it may be as far back as c. 2480 of the Third Age.

In the lore there's a lot of small snippets of indirect info, so it might take some research, and a few posts, before we can connect the dots; don't give up the last hope yet.

[Námo]

Well when a Mummy Orc and Daddy Orc love each other very much....

They might also have been "united in hatred" for each other.

I wonder where he got his first Orcs were they loaners from Mordor or did he recruit them from the Misty Mountains?

Why not both?

Anyway, I know that there are indications, that some of the orcs in Isengard were actually Mordor-orcs. I don't know if I can find the actual quotes, so I hope you'll believe me on this one.

Edited by Námo, 24 October 2011 - 02:01 PM.
link added

[Námo]

It did not take much time for Saruman to breed a large army of uruk-hai. Do we know when Saruman started breeding his own orcs?

Whatever a plausible answer may be, it certainly is NOT this one:

[Scenes from Peter Jackson's movie. Approximate time: mid september 3018 T.A. ... about half a year before the Battles of the Fords of Isen and the attack on Helm's Deep]

[Saruman is in the Chamber of the Palantír at Isengard. His hand is suspended over the Stone, and a fiery light is in its depths. The eye of Sauron appears within the Palantir. Saruman, eyes closed, appears to be communicating with Sauron by pure thought.]

Saruman: "The power of Isengard is at your command, Sauron, Lord of the Earth."

Sauron: "Build me an army worthy of Mordor!"

[Saruman is sitting on a chair in one of his chambers, his arms wound about him. He looks haunted. Three puny Orcs file into the room.]

First Orc: "What orders from Mordor my Lord? What does the Eye command?"

Saruman: "We have work to do."

------------

[Deep in the pits, Orcs are tending strange moving formations in the mud. Groans issue from within the mounds. Something appears to be struggling to get out. A giant creature emerges, killing the Orc who has been helping it to be born.]

[The creature is massive, towering above the smaller Orcs, with huge teeth, and covered in slime. Saruman gazes at his creation in rapt admiration.]

This is simply too cheap an explanation, and in my opinion one of worst flaws in the movies. Peter Jackson not only committed treachery to Tolkien's lore, he also made character assassination on Saruman's personality.

Saruman was (or rather became) a traitor, but to fully understand his motives and actions (and why he created his army) it is important to realize that he was a double traitor, not only to the White Council and his mission, but also to Sauron. The following dialogs evidence to that:

"'Then is not Saruman a traitor?' said Gimli.

'Indeed yes,' said Gandalf. 'Doubly. [...] A treacherous weapon is ever a danger to the hand. Saruman also had a mind to capture the Ring, for himself ...'"

"'I am Uglúk. I command. I return to Isengard by the shortest road.' 'Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye?' said the evil voice. 'We should go back at once to Lugbúrz.'

[...] 'You have spoken more than enough, Uglúk,' sneered the evil voice. 'I wonder how they would like it in Lugbúrz. They might think that Uglúk's shoulders need relieving of a swollen head. They might ask where his strange ideas came from. Did they come form Saruman, perhaps? Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree with me, with Grishnákh their trusted messenger; and I Grishnákh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.'"

However, Sauron did not realize the dept of Saruman's treason, or did so too late.

Tolkien never openly stated Saruman's intentions, but we can understand them from a series of events and passages in the books, and the roots of his treason is to be found many decades (or even centuries) before the War of the Ring.

(to be continued ...)

EDIT: The images related to these scenes can be seen at:

http://www.tk421.net...lm/fotr/12.html
------------
http://www.tk421.net...lm/fotr/13.html

Edited by Námo, 26 October 2011 - 06:15 PM.
images prohibited from being embedded

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Saruman's treachery is all Gandalf's fault

Although it's implied Saruman's treachery might have been because he was envious of Gandalf being chosen first.
Maybe it slowly festered within him for all that time.